Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke [Round 2] Theolocution on Mind Upload, Shadow Integration, and Consciousness

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May 22, 2021

In this thought-provoking dialogue, Bernardo Kastrup, a philosopher defending idealism, and John Vervaeke, a cognitive science expert, explore the concept of consciousness. They tackle mind uploading and its implications for identity, emphasizing that simply copying mental states doesn't equate to transferring consciousness. The conversation also touches on the integration of the 'shadow self' for psychological growth, the significance of emotional maturity over mere intelligence, and the quest for deeper truths in a fragmented spiritual landscape.

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INSIGHT

Meaning in Vervaeke's Message

John Vervaeke's core message emphasizes meaning, particularly in the West's current historical context.
He suggests we've lost touch with fundamental drivers of life like meaning, as opposed to power or pleasure.

INSIGHT

Respectable Idealism

Bernardo Kastrup's clear presentation makes idealism intellectually respectable, distinct from "woo-woo" versions.
Vervaeke found their positions moving closer, considering ideas like Whitehead's pan-experientialism and prehension.

INSIGHT

Symmetry of Dissociation and Emergence

Vervaeke sees symmetry between Kastrup's dissociation analogy and emergence, both relying on weak analogies.
He suggests a "strong dissociation" similar to strong emergence is needed for idealist accounts of reality.

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YouTube: https://youtu.be/zw6BFDJ765w

Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke become closer and closer, in this theolocution. Sponsors: https://brilliant.org/TOE for 20% off. http://algo.com for supply chain AI.

Patreon for conversations on Theories of Everything, Consciousness, Free Will, and God: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal Crypto (anonymous): https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802 Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything

LINKS MENTIONED: John Vervaeke's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke Bernardo Kastrup's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup What I've Learned on Cows #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g What I've Learned on Cows #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrhpThqlCo

THANK YOU: Jaran, who helped with compiling notes.

TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:32 Summary of Round 1 00:10:29 Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position 00:28:42 Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming 00:40:45 Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness 00:43:40 Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large" 00:46:10 Whitehead and prehension 00:51:40 John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another 00:55:39 On Karl Friston's "inference" 00:52:30 How to improve as an interviewer 00:57:46 Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism 01:02:42 Bernardo started out as an "objectivist" 01:08:15 Mind Uploading is nonsense 01:12:58 Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness 01:24:12 There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to? 01:29:56 Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional. 01:36:03 "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche. 01:39:25 Respecting the elderly 01:41:52 Having mode vs. the Being mode 01:48:05 Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape" 01:58:30 Love is a part of nature, but not the only part. 02:05:54 How to integrate the Shadow 02:10:57 The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive. 02:13:18 Internal family systems therapy 02:21:08 Curt's personal confession 02:28:12 We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are. 02:34:40 Trying not to try 02:40:05 Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo 02:50:50 Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world 02:54:34 Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo" 02:58:37 Bernardo's shadow 03:01:35 We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality 03:05:28 How to build the modern religion? 03:33:44 Where you can find more about John and Bernardo 03:39:36 BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try 03:44:07 BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing 03:57:03 BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation? 03:59:33 BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise 04:01:28 BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love

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Just wrapped (April 2021) a documentary called Better Left Unsaid http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to watch it.

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