Episode 142: "Will the Lost Remain Alive in Hell Forever?" Chris Date and Ross Burns Debate Hell
Jul 4, 2020
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Chris Date and Ross Burns debate the eternal fate of the lost in hell, challenging traditional beliefs on punishment duration. They discuss annihilationism versus eternal torment, biblical interpretations of death and life, and early church fathers' views on eternal torment. The debate touches on the continuity in Romans and Revelation, symbolism of new heavens and earth, and Satan's destiny. The podcast explores the possibility of changing beliefs through reflection and advocates for respectful debate in the community.
The symbolic interpretation of biblical passages in Revelation supports the concept of destruction over eternal life in immortality.
Revelation's portrayal of 'dogs' outside the gates is a present admonition, not a definitive judgment on eternal fate.
Death in biblical context refers to the end of embodied life, leading to an ongoing lack of embodied life and fulfillment in the second death.
God's justice is better represented through proportional punishment rather than infinite torment, culminating in eternal justice.
Human aversion to non-being emphasizes the severity of death as a punishment, challenging perceptions of immediate cessation.
Distinctions in degrees of punishment are exemplified through diverse methods of execution, reflecting justice through differentiated consequences.
Deep dives
Revelation Passages Interpretation: Symbolism of Destruction
The passages in Revelation presented by Ross as evidence of eternal torment are symbolically interpreted as communicating destruction, as clarified through the angel's, God's, and John's own interpretations of the vision, which point to the outcome of death and destruction rather than everlasting life in immortality.
Interpretation of Revelation 22:15: Context of Vision Conclusion
The mention of 'dogs' being outside the gates in Revelation 22:15 is post-vision, indicating individuals in real-time context who have refused the faith, rather than a depiction of the eternal state outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. It's a present admonition to specific people for their present actions, not a definitive judgment on the eternal fate of individuals.
Luke 16 Parable: Death and Consciousness
In the Luke 16 parable, the argument that death signifies a cessation of existence is refuted. Death in biblical context refers to the end of embodied life, leading to ongoing lack of embodied life. The second death involves the cessation of existence for both body and soul, fulfilling Jesus' teaching about the ultimate fate in the second death.
Appropriate Punishment and Justice
The discussion on appropriate punishment for figures like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler shifts the focus to God's definition of justice rather than human perceptions. The concept of infinite punishment through everlasting torment means justice is never fully satisfied, contrasting with the view of death as a punishment that culminates in eternal justice on the last day.
Consideration of Human Experience and Fear of Non-Existence
The fear of non-existence and the terror associated with death and the cessation of existence throughout human history challenge the notion that an immediate painful death followed by cessation is not severe. Universal human experience reveals a strong aversion to the idea of non-being, highlighting the gravity of death as a punishment.
Degrees of Punishment and Justice in Various Means of Death
Understanding degrees of punishment is contextualized by the different methods of execution, where the severity of the punishment varies. Analogous to the distinction between death by the electric chair and death by lethal injection, the diverse means of death reflect varying degrees of punishment, portraying justice through differentiated consequences.
Reclaiming the Concept of Death as an Enemy
Chris stresses the importance of reestablishing a proper theology of death as an enemy that needs to be undone. He emphasizes the significant impact of understanding death in this light to appreciate life more fully. By acknowledging death as an enemy to be eradicated, Christians can value life and understand the consequence of eternal separation from God.
Consistency in God's Justice and Punishment
Ross argues for the consistency of God's justice by ensuring that sinners, particularly those like Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin, face proportional punishment. He highlights the idea that eternal torment aligns with the infinite debt owed to God for sinning against Him. This eternal punishment is seen as a just consequence for the rebellion against an infinitely holy God.
Interpretation of Biblical Imagery in Revelation
Ross emphasizes that biblical imagery in Revelation should be interpreted symbolically rather than literally. He contends that weeping and gnashing of teeth symbolize realization of exclusion from God's kingdom, not eternal torment. The concept of second death in Revelation is interpreted as a physical death rather than eternal suffering.
Role of Immortality in Scripture
Ross affirms that immortality is exclusively given to believers in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. He distinguishes between the bodily immortality granted to believers for eternal life and the endless conscious existence of non-believers, refraining from labeling it as immortality. The eternal existence of sinners contrasts with the eternal life promised to believers.
God's Justice Displayed through Destruction of Sinners
Chris argues that God's justice is displayed through the destruction of sinners rather than through eternal torment. He references biblical instances like the destruction of Pharaoh in the Red Sea to illustrate how God's actions demonstrate justice, emphasizing that one does not need everlasting torment to showcase divine justice.
Biblical Interpretation of Eternal Torment vs. Annihilationism
The discussion revolves around the concept of eternal punishment, with one side arguing for eternal torment and the other for annihilationism. The points made include the inconsistency of eternal torment with God's justice, the interpretation of 'second death' as annihilation, and the idea that death will be permanently destroyed, leading to the cessation of existence for the wicked.
Views on Different Interpreters and Doctrines
The conversation delves into various scholars and their perspectives, such as Bart Ehrman's alignment with annihilationism. The disagreement over the interpretation of key biblical passages for eternal torment or annihilation is highlighted, emphasizing the diverse views and debates within Christian theology regarding the final fate of the wicked.
Rethinking Hell contributor Chris Date debates traditionalist Ross Burns on Zac Sechler’s “Adherent Apologetics” YouTube channel, debating the question, “Will the Lost Remain Alive in Hell Forever?”
