Today on Upstream, we’re releasing an episode from Modern Relationships which originally aired on February 28, 2025 where Erik Torenberg interviews philosophy professors Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks about their unconventional marriage, the role of philosophy in their relationship, the impact of their public profile, and how they balance personal and philosophical life together.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

🙏 Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse

—

RECOMMENDED PODCASTS:

🎙️Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. This season's guests include: Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova, Kristen Berman & Phil Levin, Rob Henderson, and Liv Boeree & Igor Kurganov.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod

—

SPONSORS:

☁️ Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is a single platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs. OCI has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clouds and offers one consistent price. Oracle is offering to cut your cloud bill in half. See if your company qualifies at oracle.com/turpentine

🎯 Say goodbye to the headaches of out-of-home advertising. AdQuick combines technology, OOH expertise, and data to enable efficient, seamless ad buying across the globe. Visit adquick.com to start reaching your customers in the real world.

🕵️‍♂️ Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code UPSTREAM at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/upstream

💥 Head to Squad to access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com/ and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.

—

LINKS:

New Yorker article on Agnes and Arnold, by Rachel Aviv: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/agnes-callard-profile-marriage-philosophy

Agnes Callard: https://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/a-callard

Arnold Brooks: https://philosophy.uchicago.edu/arnold-brooks

Pre-order Agnes Callard's new book Open Socrates: https://wwnorton.com/books/open-socrates

Agnes Callard on Upstream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JotaCsaG3Y

—

X / TWITTER:

@AgnesCallard

@eriktorenberg

@turpentinemedia

—

HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE:

Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks are philosophy professors at University of Chicago who met when she was his teacher, leading to her divorce from Ben and marriage to Arnold.
Agnes was initially attracted to Arnold's remarkable ability to interpret Aristotle, which she considered more impressive than conventional attractive qualities.
Arnold was drawn to Agnes as a "fellow philosopher" in a specific way he hadn't experienced with anyone else before.
Their philosophical disagreement centers on whether marriage is something achievable to build upon (Arnold's view) or an indefinite pursuit toward an ideal that may be beyond reach (Agnes's view).
Agnes provocatively stated "marriage is a preparation for divorce" - not meaning marriages should end, but that relationships require navigating difficult circumstances.
They maintain an unusual living arrangement where Agnes, Arnold, and her ex-husband Ben all live together and co-parent.
Arnold says his primary attraction is simply witnessing Agnes's way of living, which doesn't require reciprocation.
They caution against basing relationships solely on reciprocal goods (I support you, you support me).
Their approach to raising "interesting" children involves asking them abstract questions rather than concrete ones.
Their New Yorker profile brought public attention that Agnes believes says more about readers' fascination than about their actual relationship.

Inspiration and Divine Intervention. Special Guests: Gabriel and Lorraine Varela (Part 3)