Scott Payne, a retired FBI Special Agent with 28 years of experience, shares gripping insights into his undercover work infiltrating extremist groups, including neo-Nazis. He discusses the intense challenges faced by undercover operatives, from drug buys to navigating complex social dynamics within biker gangs. Payne highlights the psychological toll of high-pressure situations and the moral dilemmas encountered on the job. His riveting stories delve into the dark corners of society and the urgent need for empathy and mental health support for law enforcement personnel.
Scott Payne recounts his transformation from a law school aspirant to a dedicated undercover agent influenced by criminal justice films and mentorship.
He details the historical origins of biker gangs post-World War II, highlighting how veterans formed these secretive groups for community support.
Payne's inaugural drug buy showcased the high-pressure environment of undercover work, revealing the challenges in authenticating his undercover persona during transactions.
The conversation probes the mental and emotional toll of undercover operations, emphasizing the importance of support systems and camaraderie for coping with stress.
A powerful narrative recounted an undercover neo-Nazi ritual, illustrating the extremes he faced while balancing investigative duty with confronting disturbing ideologies.
Payne discusses the rise of domestic terrorism, particularly focusing on the base group's violent tactics and how his infiltrations informed the FBI's response strategies.
Deep dives
Undercover Beginnings
The narrator recounts his journey into undercover work, which began after discovering a passion for criminal justice during college. Initially aspiring to be a lawyer, he quickly realized his blunt honesty wouldn't align with the profession. After serving three years in uniform patrol, he expressed a strong interest in undercover work, fueled by inspiration from films and a mentor with undercover experience in biker gangs. This shift led to a career spanning 25 years infiltrating various organizations, including the Klan and neo-Nazi groups.
The History of Biker Gangs
The conversation delves into the origins of biker gangs, tracing back to post-World War II. Many veterans returned without adequate support, leading to the formation of motorcycle clubs. The American Motorcycle Association described 99% of bikers as law-abiding citizens, coining the term '1%ers' for the outlaws. These gangs have remained notoriously secretive and resistant to infiltration by law enforcement.
First Undercover Assignment
The narrator reflects on his inaugural undercover drug buy, which involved a nerve-wracking attempt to purchase crack cocaine. Expecting a straightforward transaction, anxiety set in as he faced a suspected dealer and prepared to negotiate a buy. His experience highlighted the challenges of physically embodying an undercover persona while remaining authentic. This initial venture set the stage for more complex and dangerous assignments in the years to come.
Transition to FBI Work
After honing his skills in undercover operations, he was hired by the FBI, beginning as a case agent while still conducting undercover work. He detailed the strict training and certification process, which prepared agents for the challenges they would face in the field. Much of his early FBI work involved intelligence gathering, where he had to adopt various disguises and personas for undercover missions. As he gained experience, the assignments became increasingly dangerous and multifaceted.
Challenges of Undercover Life
The narrative discusses the mental and emotional toll of undercover work, particularly the need for decompression after intense assignments. The pressure of balancing personal life with the dangers of undercover missions was underscored, including feelings of guilt and moral conflict during these operations. To cope, the narrator leaned on camaraderie with peers and a strong support system, including his wife, who played a significant role in helping him navigate the complexities of his career. This duality of personal and professional life shaped his outlook on undercover work.
Extreme Encounters
One particularly shocking story involved participating in a neo-Nazi ritual that included the a goat sacrifice and drinking its blood. The event outlined the extreme beliefs and practices within such groups, where members engaged in serious acts of violence as part of their ideology. The narrator had to balance his investigative duty with the disturbing reality of these practices. This experience illustrated the lengths to which these groups would go to uphold their beliefs.
Confronting Domestic Terrorism
The discussion shifts to the rise of domestic terrorism, particularly focusing on the base, an accelerationist neo-Nazi group. They aimed to create chaos and civil unrest to expedite the collapse of society through violent means. The narrator infiltrated their ranks, learning about their plans and recruiting tactics while trying to gather substantial evidence against them. The intelligence gathered from these operations shaped the FBI’s strategy in addressing the growing threat of domestic terrorism.
Murder for Hire Plots
One gripping account involved being approached for a murder-for-hire plot, where the narrator was tasked with executing a series of home invasions. The plans involved extensive premeditation, including character assessments and personal motivations behind the intended killings. These encounters forced the narrator to navigate the treacherous waters of criminal intent while trying to maintain an undercover persona. As the investigation unfolded, he realized the depth of depravity in the plots he was presented with.
Reassessment of Identity
Throughout the undercover journey, the narrator faced profound internal struggles regarding his identity and the relationships built with individuals embedded in criminal activities. As connections grew stronger, he had to grapple with the emotional weight of betraying these individuals by exposing their actions. This duality raised questions about loyalty, morality, and the psychological costs of living in an undercover capacity. The conflict between professional duty and personal bonds played a critical role in shaping his perspective.
Consequences of Undercover Work
The extensive toll that undercover work takes on agents was another point of reflection, emphasizing issues such as anxiety, PTSD, and familial strain. The narrator mentioned how his work affected his marriage and the critical importance of a support system during tough assignments. Factors like the pressure to maintain anonymity and the constant threat of danger added layers of stress. These aspects play a crucial role in understanding the psychological landscape faced by those in the field.
Final Reflections and Future Prospects
As the narrator reflects on his career, he emphasizes the importance of learning and sharing experiences with others to highlight the realities of undercover work. Writing the book serves as an attempt to provide insight into the complexities of law enforcement and the moral dilemmas faced by someone in his position. He expresses hope that by sharing his story, he can contribute to a broader understanding of the sacrifices made by those in law enforcement. The journey from undercover agent to author signifies a new chapter in his life, with aspirations to continue helping others through education and mentorship.
Scott Payne is a retired FBI Special Agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He is the co-author of the book "Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis" and the subject of the podcast "White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse," both created in collaboration with journalist Michelle Shephard.
