This is a conversation with former mobster now mafia historian Louis Ferrante about his intriguing new book BORGATA: RISE OF EMPIRE. The former “chop shop” small time thug now erudite Ferrante is like a cross between Sonny Corleone & Niall Ferguson. Essential viewing/listening. Transcript below.

AK (00:18): Hello everybody. It is Tuesday, January the second, 2024. We're in a new year, but old themes. Last year we did several shows on the Mafia, one with the historian Paul Moses on the what he calls, at least the true story of the immigrant cops who fought the rise of the Mafiaa. He had a new book out called Appropriately Enough, the Italian Squad, another with an interesting writer, Matt Beck, the Life We Choose about a series of conversations he had with a Mafiaa member called William Big Belly Delia. He talked about not just Donald Trump and Michael Jackson, but also Jimmy Hoffer, and we're going one better in 2024 rather than writing or talking to people who have spoken to people in the Mafiaa. We have a man, Louis Ferrante, who once upon a time was a member of the Mafia. And since become a very successful writer, the author of many books, bestselling books, including particular Mob Rules, what the Mafia Can Teach the Legitimate Businessman. It was a huge hit. And he has a new book out. It's a history of the Mafia, the Borgata Trilogy, volume one, rise of Empire. It came out in November of last year in the uk, and it's out this week in the US. Louis Ferrante is joining us from his home in Sarasota on the Gulf Coast of Florida. Louis, before we went live, you told me it's very nice in Florida.

Louis Ferrante (02:01): Florida's beautiful, the Sunshine State, a lot of sun. I need sun. I grew up in New York, and the winters are dark and dreary, and London's a beautiful place too. I like the people in London, but once again, the weather's not the best part.

AK (02:17): Dreary. Yeah, I'm talking to actually from California. So Louis, when you fly out and you get on a plane, you happen to sit next to someone and you get into conversation and they ask you what career you have or had, what would you say?

Louis Ferrante (02:31): I'd tell 'em a hijacker if I'm on a plane.

AK (02:36): And what do they do?

Louis Ferrante (02:38): They look for the attendant or they go to the bathroom? No, I mean, I was a truck hijacker, a little different from a plain hijacker, but I tell them I'm a writer and a television host, which is the truth. I'm a bestselling author. My books have been translated into 2020 languages, and I hosted a show for Discovery Channel.

AK (03:04): It's a good trade being a writer. But did you always intend to be one, or how did you go from being, as you say, a truck hijacker, someone who knows the Mafia, the American Mafia to actually writing about it.

Louis Ferrante (03:21): I faced the rest of my life in prison, and I was lucky to get out of it with a 13 year sentence. I was represented at the time by the civil rights attorney, William Kunstler, who was very instrumental in, yeah, he helped Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. He went in to negotiate with the convicts during the Attica riots, and he defended me, and I was able to get a plea of 13 years without cooperating against anyone, and I didn't have to go to trial and possibly get the rest of my life sentenced to rest of my life in prison. And while I was there, I started to think through my life and eventually I picked up my first book, fell in Love with books, became an avid reader, and at some point or another I was reading a book a day, and that's what made my time go. And I started to teach myself how to write by reading all the great authors and taking notes as to how Leo Tolstoy begins and ends a chapter, how Dostoevsky Begins and Ends a plot, how Charlotte Bronte introduces a character, et cetera, et cetera. And that's how I taught myself how to write. And by the time I came home from prison, I was ready to be a writer. And my last book, Mob Rules was an international bestseller in 20 languages. And my current book will hopefully get picked up in a lot of languages as well. And it's a trilogy.

AK (04:42): Yeah, it's already been picked up by the Germans. You imply that in prison, you were a meticulous reader. Is meticulousness something that's prized within the mafia? Was that one of your skills?

Louis Ferrante (05:00): Skills? Yeah, I mean, I was a heist guy. I ran a crew of heist guys, heist and hijackings, and you need to know what you're doing and everything's, you got to cross your T's and dot your i's make sure that everybody knows their role. Make sure that you need a well-oiled machine when you're going to do a heist or a hijack in one mistake. And everybody's lives are at stake, including innocent people. Something I might regret now, but something that was just a fact then. But we wanted to get away with it. We wanted the money. I wasn't thinking about people's lives back then. I was thinking about money and we wanted to get away with it, and you need to know what you're doing and everybody needs to know what they're doing. And I was a big planner. I would make drawings, I would go over everything with everyone. I would do mock runs to the highway to make sure we had an escape route, a backup escape route. I made sure we had backup guys in place. I never just pulled the trigger too fast. At one point, I was picked up by the feds in California where you are. We were in San Francisco and we were looking to hit an armored car, and the feds swooped in on us and grabbed us the day before we were going to hit that armored car. And it was a crucial thing. I was one guy short, and the reason why we waited was I was waiting for an extra guy to come from New York so that he could make sure we had enough guys on the heist. But yeah, so I guess I was meticulous in that sense. I was ignorant and naive in a million other ways, but I was meticulous in that sense.

AK (06:27): Yeah, you should come back, Louis. It's much easier to do your heist these days. I don't know if there are any police left in South Africa. Yeah,

Louis Ferrante (06:34): I don't know if anyone would care anymore.

AK (06:36): Yeah, you'd probably be encouraged. Lots of films and books about how young kids get into the mafia. There's The Godfather, of course, & the Irishmen. How did you get into it?

Louis Ferrante (06:48): If you start committing big enough crimes, they'll find you. And that's what happens. Once I started hijacking trucks, I ran an auto crime, a chop shop. I supplied car parts to auto collision shops for a long time when I was a kid, stole cars, chopped them up and sold them to a shop. That little operation started out with just a few car thieves, me and my friends, and eventually grew into, as I said, a chop shop. And then at some point, once we started hijacking,

AK (07:18): What is a chop shop?

Louis Ferrante (07:22): Chop shop is you have a shop where you steal a car, you get an order from a collision shop. So a collision shop, for example, has, let's say they got a Mercedes and they got to spend $30,000 in parts because it's a hundred thousand dollars car and the car's wrecked, so they need 30,000 in parts. They might tell us, look, we'll give you five grand, can you get us all the parts? And then they'll put the stolen parts on the customer's car and sell them back the repaired car. So we would get paid then to go out, steal the car, try to get the same color so they wouldn't even have to paint it, but if you had to, you paint it. It's not always easy to match colors, but we would steal the car, chop it up, give them the parts they needed, and then dump the skeleton somewhere in the beginning we dumped it in the woods. And then at some point or another, we started renting. Back then you could lease a building under a phony name and then just abandon the building when you were done with it. I don't think you could get away with that. Nowadays there's too many identifications and stuff required, and people are hip at things like that, but back then you could even fly. When I told you I went to California to knock off an armor car, we flew under different names. Pre 9/11, you just booked an airline ticket under any name. I just picked the name out of the phone book. Just get on a plane.

AK (08:35): Those were the days. You mentioned your bestselling book, Mob Rules, what the Mafia can Teach the Legitimate Businessman. There's a sort of cliche, Louis, I'm sure you've heard it a thousand times, that had you been born into the New York or Boston upper classes, you would've ended up at Harvard Business School and made a million dollars that way, is what you were doing. Is that a form of innovation and in some ways equivalent to what kids are taught at Stanford or Harvard Business School these days to think and be meticulous and accomplish what they set out to do?

Louis Ferrante (09:19): Yeah, I don't know if they're taught any more to think. I don't know what an Ivy League upbringing is like, so it would be unimaginable for me to even,

AK (09:33): But you've met those types.

Louis Ferrante (09:36): Oh, all day long. Yeah, all day long. Some of them can't tie their shoes. I mean, just can't fix a flat. I was with a doctor once who got a flat and didn't know what to do, had no idea where the jack was, where to even begin. If I wasn't with him, he would've sat on the side of the road probably for the rest of his life until he died of starvation. So yeah, I would rather grow up and have to learn how to do things yourself.

AK (10:01): Where did you grow up? What town?

Louis Ferrante (10:03): In Queens? Yeah. I grew up in Queens and one of the five boroughs in New York, lower New York. The lower borough.

AK (10:08): Yeah. My son lives there now.

Louis Ferrante (10:10): Does he really? What part?

AK (10:13): On the border with Brooklyn.

Louis Ferrante (10:17): Oh, okay. They're building it up. It's probably up.

AK (10:20): Yeah. It's much more fashionable now than it, I'm sure it used to be.

Louis Ferrante (10:23): Yeah. I mean, I was in a lower income section of Queens, middle to lower income, so it wasn't all that, but a lot of people now, they've bought up a lot of big real estate in Brooklyn, and I guess they're moving to Queens now too.

AK (10:37): Did your family know what you were doing? How old were you when you started your chop shop?

Louis Ferrante (10:42): I was in high school when I was running the chop shop, so I kept it from them as best I can. I remember the first time I came home with a tagged car. A tagged car would be if, let's say I bought a wrecked vehicle, let's say a wrecked Cadillac, and I bought the completely, it was totaled out. So you pick up the wreck for a couple hundred bucks. Nobody wants it, but it's got a clean title. If you have a clean title, you don't have to go to motor vehicle and go through an inspection at that time. I don't know if things have changed. Now, this is many years ago. So if you bought a wrecked car, you had a clean title, you could then go out and steal a car, pop a couple of the tags off, for example, the VIN number in the dashboard, pop that tag off, put it on your stolen car, and then drive that as if it's yours. If you get pulled over by a cop, usually the cops just checked the dashboard tag. They never went through the rest of the car unless it was auto crime, which was something different. They'd have to be looking for you. So I came home with a beautiful brand new El Dorado, and I remember my mother was heartbroken. She came out on the porch and looked at it and said, you're killing me. You're breaking my heart.

AK (11:48): Right, because she knew what you were doing.

Louis Ferrante (11:50): Yeah, of course. How would I afford that car? I didn't have a job. So I tried to tell her that my friend who I work at the Body shop for part-time, he gave me the car and he's going to let me pay it off, but she wasn't buying it. She came from a family who was crooked, although she was law abiding. She was hip to the streets in a way, and she knew something was wrong. And she said, you're breaking my heart. And I never forgot that I did break her heart. She eventually died in my arms. And when I was young, she died at 47. I was 19, turning 20, and I went off the deep end after that. But to this day, I regret that she had to go through that and no, did I admit it to her? No. Did I tell her? But she, no, she knew she was hip.

AK (12:33): Louis, talk to me about why you've written this history. Is it bound up with your own history? I mean, much of this history, this first volume is set in the 19th, late 19th, early 20th century when of course you weren't around. But is this a very personal narrative or have you tried to step back and write about the history of the mafia as an objective historian?

Louis Ferrante (13:18): Both. And so first answer, I'll answer that question and tell you how the book came about. I do try to be as objective as possible. I don't want anybody to believe that I'm inserting myself where I don't belong. I want to tell a real history. And Publishers Weekly gave me a rave review saying that I did not rest on my own experiences alone.

AK (13:40): You didn't threaten them, did you?

Louis Ferrante (13:42): No, I did not. No, I didn't hang anybody out of a window or anything. No. And then handed them a pen and said, you know what to do? No, I didn't. Basically, they just said it was Well-researched all my notes. My source notes are in the back years, years reading articles, books. But what I was able to bring to the table from my own insights was I have an extra sense that most people wouldn't have. Being I was a criminal when I read something, I know if it was true or if it wasn't. I know if the writer has been, they don't, usually a writer wouldn't intentionally mislead the reader, but sometimes writers themselves are misled and they may get information, and because they don't know the world or the culture, the subculture, they write the wrong story. And a lot of times I'd be in jail when I was reading history, biographies, science philosophy. I would hear other guys, mob guys reading mob books, and you would hear a lot of guys blurting out b******t never happened, who wrote this crap? And when I finally started to do my own research, I realized that I came across a lot of things that were untrue, and I was able to decipher that stuff for the reader, which I think is interesting. I debunked a lot of old mafia myths that have been around for decades about leading Mafia figures. And I would explain to the reader, this is why it could have never happened. I don't want the reader to just take my word. I want the reader to have confidence in me as a writer to know that this is why this could never have happened. So time and again, I do that. To go back to your original question is where the book came from, how it came about. It wasn't something I really thought about. I was invited to Mob Rules, as we mentioned, was an international bestseller. And I was invited to Sicily by the German media conglomerate at Axel Springer, and it was a retreat for editors in Argento, Sicily. And I was seated next to an older man who happened to be there, and his name was George. And him and I hit it off. He was in his nineties, but a very young nineties, sharp as nails. And we talked all evening, and at the end of the evening, he said, I would like to publish the next book. And it turned out to be Lord George Denfeld, one of the biggest of the 20th century. And the next day we had lunch in Argento overlooking the ruins with Lord George and his charming wife, lady Annabelle. And Lady Annabelle had some priceless input as well, which persuaded me to write the book, what turned down to morphed into a trilogy. Originally, I was contracted to write a book, but I said, you can't squeeze all this into a book. There's too much here. It has to be stretched out. And I probably could have wrote 10 volumes, but I ended up writing a trilogy, and that's how the book came about. Lord George, as I understand it, he had a reputation of connecting writers with subjects, and I was the last one he had personally did that with before he unfortunately passed away.

AK (16:39): Louis, if you were to write a history of the Mafia itself, would that begin in Sicily? There's a very strong Sicilian quality, but the mafia existed throughout Italy, of course. Is there something about the Sicilian Mafiaa and the history of the American mafia that are inseparable?

Louis Ferrante (18:23): There is, as I pointed out in the early chapters of the book, I dug deep into how the mafia was formed inside the Sicilian womb, and it did indeed start in Sicily and then spread throughout the peninsula up and down the peninsula of Italy. But it was born in Sicily, and it had a lot to do with socioeconomic reasons, culture, family tradition, as I point out all these things in the book. And there was also, I point out a strong Arab influence in Western Sicily, which is interesting because Sicily was invaded by so many different people's over the course of centuries, whether it be the Spanish, the French, the Austrians, and the Arabs at some point. So the Arabs had a strong, I believe, where it developed in Western Sicily for the most part, in places like Palermo and Argento and Casa Lama del Gulfo, there was a strong Arab influence there, which is still present, still prevalent in a lot of places in the architecture and stuff, in words, in people's names, et cetera. So I was able to trace the history deep into Sicily and how it started in America was during the Southern Italian mass exodus wave into the United States after slavery was abolished in the United States in the 1860s. That came on around the same time when the unification of Italy occurred in Europe. And Sicilians were not happy with the unification of Italy being sort of absorbed by Italy proper. And they felt like a lot of Sicilians felt like it was just the newest conqueror, the newest ruler, no different from the bans in France or whoever else was there. So they were like, Hey, you know what? We're not happy with this. And there was a lot of poverty. And when America abolished slavery, we needed labor. We needed cheap labor quick because we no longer had slave labor in the United States. And at that point, we started looking around and there were plenty of poor people in Europe, and we invited them, and they came here in droves, and the mafia rode in on those boats. A lot of them, and I go to detail, I go very, very close detail throughout the early chapters of how exactly that happened. And I'm also very, very careful to point out that most Italian-Americans came here to work hard and to make a new life for themselves and their children and grandchildren, and had nothing to do with the mafia and never committed crimes. But the unfortunate circumstance, the unfortunate byproduct of that mass immigrant wave was the Italian criminals that came with them. A lot of them were fugitives from justice in Sicily, and they planted new flags here in American cities throughout the country, in metropolitan areas. At one point or another. There were just as many Mafia families as there were metropolitan areas across the United States. There was one in every metropolitan area, and then the strongest one survived and went on sort of like Arnold Toby's Darwinian theory of how empires are built, the strong survive. It was the same thing with a lot of these.

AK (21:27): Why was it that the Mafia, that the Sicilian Mafia became so dominant, and there were many immigrants from Naples and other parts of mainland southern Italy. What is it about the Southern Sicilian, and is it different in its principles organization, morality or lack of morality from the Neapolitan Mafia, for example?

Louis Ferrante (21:51): Yeah. Well, the Neapolitan Mafia was the Kimora. I had done a documentary for the History Channel about them very different from the Italian Sicilian, the Sicilian Mafia in Sicily. A lot of these other mafias from Calabria, from Naples, and even there were a few in northern Italy, very weak. None of them had that sort of Sicilian, the Sicilians. They had something very special on that island. It was an island different throughout up and down the peninsula of Italy. You had city states throughout the Renaissance and stuff. So they were all very, I'm still asked, her father was from Naples, and her mother was from Sicily. So I have two grandparents on my mother's side from Naples and Sicily. And my father's, both parents were from Bari, all from southern Italy. But I'm still asked by people who are Italian American, where are you from? And they sort of connect with you a lot faster if you're from the same place they were from. So you can only imagine back then how territorial Italy was and how people really responded to people like themselves. So at that time, Sicily was an island away from even all those city states, and they were really, really isolated, and they really, really relied on themselves. And throughout history, there were always weak central governments in Sicily, no matter who ruled Sicily, they really never cared about the Sicilian people and implementing any positive changes, whether social changes or institutional changes. They just wanted to pretty much rape Sicily of whatever agrarian products they could get off the island. So most of the time, the Sicilian people relied on themselves, and that went a lot into it as well. And it was a patriarchal society, which in some cases comes from the Arab influence in Sicily.

AK (23:33): Are you presenting then the Sicilian Mafia as a resistance, organizational resistance to colonialism of one kind?

Louis Ferrante (23:41): Believe it or not, at one point they were. Now, I know that they evolved or devolved extremely quickly into something much more treacherous and less upstanding than that. But I do make the argument that in the very beginning, they were indeed just that in my book, even the word I trace, for the first time, people were, historians were sort of in agreement that it came from an Arabic word, but they threw out a half a dozen different Arabic words that it might've come from one meaning a cave dweller, another one meaning a proud horse, and all kinds of different words from the Arabic language, I was able to trace the word mafia. Those of us in the West who are familiar with the siege of Khartoum, where the Victorian general Gordo, the British General Gordo,, was sent to sort of hold off against the Muslim guy who sort took control and launched this rebellion and said, I am the sort of the prophet. I am the prophet incarnate. And he was sort of like a rebellious character against the status quo all throughout the world, throughout the east and the Middle East. And in this particular case, when the Arabs were pushed into the western region of Sicily, after the unification of Italy, the modest regime was known as the Media, which was one letter away from Mafia. So I left it, look, I'm not an etymologist, but I left it to future historians to debate this. And I make a cogent argument that this is where it came from, my quote, encyclopedia Britannica. I quote people who were on the scene at the time, I quote history books, et cetera, to make this argument. And I do believe it came from that particular word.

AK (25:29): As I said, Louis, we've done lots of shows on the mafia infiltration, the response of the police, but is the reason why the Mafia became so powerful and perhaps remained so powerful in the United States because it's a country with a tradition of weak central government, of federal government, of government that isn't for the most part, very effective or efficient. So in other words, was there something, and you have to be careful using this word as a historian, but was there a degree of inevitability about the mafia's rise to power in late 19th century America?

Louis Ferrante (26:12): It's a great question, and the answer is yes. There was a Sicilian mobster, and I don't recall his name, but he said, why in the world can anybody think why? When Sicilians left Sicily for New life in America, and a lot of them landed in South America, central America, a lot of them landed in North Africa. They went everywhere. Sicilians were scattered everywhere. But why only in America did the American Mafia, did the Mafia really take root as it did? And that goes to our system, which is we have always had a very corrupt system. And I traced that it was very easily manipulated by mobsters who really learned how to bribe politicians and law enforcement officials during prohibition. And that was a prime time because during prohibition, which took place the roaring twenties into 1930, we had people in America who wanted to drink and were told by their government, you're not allowed. And so the people as a whole didn't agree with this. So they were really, really suddenly the mafiaa who wanted to provide them with liquor, with alcohol and supplying the demand for alcohol weren't seen as these animals anymore. These killers, these beat bad guys, they were all of a sudden these romantic sexy figures who were giving the United States, the people of the country, alcohol when they desperately wanted it. And that's when the mafia began to corrupt a lot of politicians and political machines. And the influence ran throughout law enforcement agencies and that deep influence they had during prohibition, basically, once prohibition was repealed and Americans could drink again, the mafia kept a lot of those deep corrupt alliances that they had made, and they moved on to use them for gambling and stuff, to open up casinos, to have a casino, to have a casino. So a lot of why the mafia was able to prosper here in America had a lot to do with the easily corruptible local governments. And at that point, there wasn't an overarching federal government who could come in and say, Hey, you've been all corrupted. We'll take over from here. We know you're all bought and paid for by the Mafiaa here in your local town. So here the federal government's going to move in with j Edgar Hoover's, FBI, et cetera, et cetera. That didn't happen.

AK (28:44): Yeah. And of course, j Edgar Hoover's, FBI began in some ways as a response, not always a particularly effective one to prohibition. To what extent the book covers legendary figures and legendary mafia figures like Lucky Luciano & many others. To what extent do these kind of guys capture the spirit of a violent independent 19th century America?

Louis Ferrante (29:16): They do and don't. By the time we get to Luciano and Genovese and Costello, they're sort of this newer generation of American mobsters. So the first generation with these sort of old mustache, peats, grease balls, all the derogatory names that they were called in this country, they were sort of like off the boat, Italians. That was the first generation. Then there was the second generation that were more American, and they weren't as clannish as the Sicilians were. They understood that if they were going to prosper in America, they needed to form these diverse relationships with Jews, with blacks, with Irish. They needed to really, if they were going to get somewhere, they basically came up with the plan that they were going to, Hey, we're going to keep this thing of ours, this thing of ours, this our thing, La Cosa Nostra. We're going to keep that to ourselves.

Nobody's allowed entry into this secret organization that we have, but let's deal with everyone. We're not going to get anywhere if we stay to ourselves. And they made alliances with everyone across the country. And that was the key. And that was sort of like that second generation, even though Costello and Luciano came to the country when they were eight or nine years old, they may as well have been born here. They were just as good as Americans, just as good as American born citizens. They were a second generation of this. And they did away with the old ones, the old clannish Mafiosos, who felt like, no, we have to defend ourselves. We have to stick with ourselves. We have to continue to live amongst ourselves, and we can't trust the Irish. We can't trust the blacks or the Jews. This second generation of Italian-Americans said, no, we can trust them and we're going to, and we're going to deal with them.

And for example, Frank Costello not only partnered with a million Jews in business, but he married a Jew. So he had a Jewish family. And at one point or another, Al Capone in Chicago, his guy Jake, greasy Thumb Gik was his best friend. He was a Jew. And when somebody had bragged that he made this little Jew greasy thumbs wine, Capone was beside himself, and he went looking for the guy, and he unloaded a revolver in his face and murdered him because Capone wasn't going to allow that to happen. He says, Jew or Italian, it doesn't matter if you're my friend, I protect you, I defend you. So these relationships really started by that sort of next generation of Italian American mobsters. And by my generation, I mean, I had a hijacking heist crew. The two of the toughest guys in my crew were Jews, and they were treated the same as any other Italian. We were all from the same neighborhood. We all grew.

AK (31:50): It extend to race as well? I mean, in The Godfather, we all remember the explicit racism of many of the fictional figures were black Americans, African-Americans, were they as welcome as Jewish Americans?

Louis Ferrante (32:08): Yes. Now, even in my time you had at one time, I said, for example, mobsters weren't going to go, oh, that African American owes me money. Let's go over there and pay him a visit. Obviously, the lingo would be that N owes me money. Let's go over there and pay him a visit. And the N would refer to us as a grease ball or whop a Guinea. So the words that we used back then would be considered racist today. But were we racist? And what were the Italians or the blacks racist against each other? Absolutely not. The only color we all saw was green. And that was it. And I point out in my book, they made a strong alliance, Lucky Luciano Luciano did with Bumpy Johnson. Bumpy Johnson, when they took over the policy racket in Harlem, they needed to smooth things over with the blacks because the black was a huge population in Harlem blacks. So Luciano struck a deal with Bumpy Johnson, where Bumpy Johnson was going to pretty much handle any black problems in Harlem and deal directly with Luciano. And bumpy Johnson's wife wrote a memoir years later that praised Luciano and said that him and my husband were best friends. And it was a real legitimate friendship. It wasn't just business. They had a real friendship. So all that racism they try to make, that's all television now because it sells. But for the most part, yeah, the talk, you told jokes about each other. You called each other what would be considered horrible names now, but were we really racist toward each other? Absolutely not. People will say Italians. And the Mafia hated gays. The Genovese family ran all the gay clubs in Greenwich Village. They controlled all the gay clubs.

AK (33:53): How about women? We did a show last year on female drug gang leaders in Latin America. There aren't that many women in your narrative, are there?

Louis Ferrante (34:03): No. I mean, if you want to say misogynistic, then I have to agree. Yeah. Not racist, but misogynistic. The Italian, the

AK (34:09):

Women in all the movies, the women are at home cooking the past, and the men are out killing each other

Louis Ferrante (34:14): Yeah, go home and cook. No Italian man wants his wife buttoned into his business. So I have to concede that point. I won't give in on racism because it wasn't there. But I will give in on misogynistic outlook toward women.

AK (34:27): And I don't necessarily mean that critically. One way. The other narrative, Louis, which of course is most clearly articulated in the Godfather, the movies, the Godfather, maybe even Godfather three, is that the mafia began in a sort of communal way, reasonably decently, even if there was a great deal of violence, and it went really badly wrong with drugs. And of course, that was the foundation of the narrative in The Godfather, the cause of all the bloodshed. Is there any truth in that? There is tell you that veto Corleone in the Godfather wasn't a bad guy, and then it all went wrong when his family got in the drug business.

Louis Ferrante (35:07): Yes, there definitely is a direct correlation between the movie and real life and the movie, whether Putto, I believe Mario Puzo, who was the author that they based the movie on, but either Puzo or Francis Ford Coppola adopted it from a real life story, which was Frank Costello. Frank Costello was the acting boss when Lucky Luciano went to jail and then was deported. And when Costello was boss, he was dead set against drugs. He did not want his Borgata dealing drugs because he felt that he had all these big political leaders in Tammany Hall who did everything that they could do for the mob to keep them out of jail, to help them with things. They had judges, they put judges in. They chose the head of Tammany, who in turn helped choose the mayor of New York slash the governor. And then obviously through the governor, Franklin Delano Roosevelt started out in New York and ended up being the president. So it's no telling how high you could go. Well, Costello said, if we continue to deal drugs, these political alliances are going to run away from us. They're not going to, this is something the American people do not like. They're fine with alcohol. They wanted alcohol. We gave it to them. They're fine with gambling. If the United States prohibits gambling and we allow them to gamble, that's fine. The people have no problem with that. They feel like we're providing them with a desire that they have. Even Luciano ran a chain of bordellos. That's an ointment for the hard up. That's fine. But obviously it's human slavery.

AK (36:40): can I quote you on that ointment for the hard up?

Louis Ferrante (36:44): Well, that's what, yeah, it basically was. It was like an outlet for social frustration maybe. Obviously. Obviously it's woman trafficking. It's disgusting. However, however, Luciano really didn't have a direct connection to it, but it was taking place, but it wasn't thought of by the American people, I should say, as the worst thing in the world.

AK (37:10): I mean, the way the Godfather presents it is that this was the argument I think Sonny Cordone made with his father is that if we don't do it, someone else will. There's going to be other groups who do it. Was there any truth to that?

Louis Ferrante (37:24): Yes. Yes. And everyone uses that argument today. There are still mobsters who sell drugs and say, if I don't do it, somebody else will. Somebody's got to do it. And me, myself, I never went near drugs. I had an uncle who was a drug addict. He was a heroin addict. And my mother from when me and my sister were little kids, she would beg us, please don't ever do drugs. Please don't ever do drugs. Don't put us through this hell that your uncle put us through. And we never did. I never did it, and I wouldn't sell it. I wouldn't call that curse down upon another person's family. I was dead set against it, but some people did. I knew people who sold drugs. I was in jail with a million different people who sold drugs. I don't think a lot of them sat down and really, really thought deeply about the consequences that could have with regard to mothers crying for the rest of their lives. And some kid dropped dead on his bed because he OD'ed or some, yeah, I

AK: Excuse the Dimwittedness of this one. Louis, you've mentioned the word “Borgata” a couple of times. You might define it. Why did you title your book “Borgata”?

Louis Ferrante (38:37): Borgata is what we called a crime family is the Borgata or the Broga, we would say, and it's a slang for a crime family. We wouldn't say we belong to a crime family. We wouldn't say we belong to the Mafiaa. We would say, I'm in so-and-So's Borgata or Borgata, and a Borgata. In the Italian definition of the word, it stems from the Latin burial. It's sort of like a poorer neighborhood of Italians would be a Borgata. A poorer community of Italians would be considered a Borgata. And that became, somehow, it became the name of a crime family, which is a little bit of a community. And obviously they don't start off super well off, or they wouldn't be committing crimes. People typically aren't born into wealth and commit crimes. So whoever the name came to mean, a crime family, that's what it means. And nobody had ever used it for a book before. So I figured, what the hell? It's perfect. So I went with the Borgata trilogy.

AK (39:32): Well, I hope in this trilogy we're going to get to have you on at least two more shows for volume two and three. You end in the sixties, of course, in The Godfather, there were a wonderful moment in Godfather two, filmed in Cuba. Cuba was central. You make Cuba an important place in this narrative. Why'd you end in the sixties? Did something happen? Did something profoundly change?

Louis Ferrante (39:58): Yes. There's a major shift that occurs in 1960 from the beginning of Borgata volume one until the end of Borgata volume one, there really isn't any concerted effort to destroy the Mafia. Thomas Dewey, who went on to become the Governor of New York and eventually ran as the Republican candidate for President against FDR, he did take a shot at locking up some gangsters in New York, but there was never really a concerted effort by the institutions of law enforcement to go after the mob. When Bobby Kennedy, when John f Kennedy's elected president in 1960, or begins his term in 1960, he appoints Bobby Kennedy, his younger brother, the Attorney General of the United States. And Bobby always had a thing against the mafia. He had started out in the McClellan Committee where he went after Jimmy Hoffa, and he went after other gangsters and called them to testify. And he was incensed that they took the Fifth Amendment all the time, and he didn't like that they would hide behind the Fifth, how dare them. And he swore he would go after them one day. And when John F. Kennedy becomes president, and Bobby is appointed Attorney General of the United States, he now suddenly has all of the Justice Department's, 30,000 employees under his control, treasury, I-R-S-I-N-S-F-B-I, et cetera, et cetera.

AK (41:18): Although Bobby Kennedy used to call j Edgar Hoover, j Edna Hoover. He never seemed to listen very much to what Bobby Kennedy said.

Louis Ferrante (41:27): No, he demeaned Hoover to, I mean, beyond what we would even consider. I mean, our standards today, forget it. They'd cancel Bobby Kennedy in a minute. But he was horrible to Hoover. And Hoover hated him. But Hoover did not. Hoover was dragged into the fight kicking and screaming. Hoover knew that if you made a concerted effort to destroy the mob, a lot of those mobsters, their backgrounds led to Congress led to congressmen, politicians, senator,

AK (42:00): And of course, Hoover wonderful new biography, Al Prize winning biography. I'm sure you've read it. He was more interested, I think, in racial divisions in America. He might've been slightly sympathetic to the Mafia because they were white.

Louis Ferrante (42:15): Yeah, I mean, he probably was at some point or another, he used the Mafiaa to uncover, I don't know if you're familiar with when those three civil rights workers were killed down in Mississippi. Johnson put tremendous pressure on Hoover to crack the case, and Hoover probably got dragged into the fray kicking and screaming. I'm sure he didn't want to go after that. He was not deferential to blacks at all, Hoover. But he knew that that's what Johnson wanted. And the public wanted to know who these people were that killed these three civil rights workers, two whites and one black. And Hoover called one of his FBI informants down south and told them, here's the KK guy. The agents told, not Hoover himself, but Hoover's agents told this mob guy, here's the KKK guy. We believe the KKK guy we believe had something to do with it. You could beat it out of him if you want. Go for it. And this guy did. And then they dug up the bodies and they cracked the case. But Hoover, Hoover didn't like Italians, but he didn't go after them. And of course he didn't like blacks. Hoover was old school, very conservative in his views. Yeah. I mean, he was a man of his own time, but he was only concerned with groups trying to advocate the destruction of the United States. He was big on communists. He did not like communists Obviously, blacks and Italians weren't trying to overthrow the United States, but groups for the most part, like communist groups…

AK (43:50): Right. His obsession with anti-Communist. And finally, Louis ending in the sixties, of course, in the sixties, America descended into a great deal of political violence, and particularly the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, of Bobby Kennedy, of Martin Luther King, many others. Lots of stories. And I'm sure you covered this in the book about Mafia involvement in one kind of assassination or another in the sixties, is in an odd ironic way at the end of this first volume, did America and the mafia kind of come together? Are they increasingly inseparable in the 1960s in the public use of violence of one kind or another?

Louis Ferrante (44:31): That's a great question. I guess they've always remained, there's some sort of inseparability between them. But yeah, America became a very violent place.

AK (44:44): Always was, but politically much more violent in the sixties.

Louis Ferrante (44:48): Correct. I mean, we didn't have assassinations like we did. There's still a song. I heard it the other day. Where's my old friend, Johnny Martin, Luther King, John and Bobby, they died. Where are they? I forget the lyrics of the song, but it was made on the heels of that violence, and it still plays on the radio today. Where's my old friend Johnny? I think it is. But yeah, I mean, America became a violent place. I do believe that the mafia had something to do directly with John f Kennedy's. I present tremendous evidence in volume two of the Borgata Trilogy, trilogy. They had something to, and

AK (45:24): That book's not out yet, right? Louis?

Louis Ferrante (45:25): It's not out yet. But they did have something to do with his murder. And I also believe at some point or another, I intend to write a book about the Mafia's involvement with Martin Luther King's murder as well. I do believe there was a mafia informant who had something to do with Martin Luther King's murder as well. And I think if Hoover's hands aren't dirty in each of those cases, he definitely had his head in the sand and he heard things that he chose to ignore. And I think that that was the type of person, Hoover was where if I want a certain outcome and I just didn't see it or didn't hear it, it's like if you have a neighbor whose dog's been crapping on your lawn for the last 10 years, and then somebody beats up the neighbor, maybe you didn't see it. Maybe you looked the other way when it happened. I don't know. Maybe you get the outcome you wanted. So that could be what happened with Hoover.

AK (46:19): Final question. I got to ask you this. We will get more next time you come on the show with volume two, talking about JFK and all that. What about you grew up in Queens? What about, you know who, I'm not sure if you've ever met him or come across him, but there's a mafia quality in the way, maybe a wannabe mafiaa quality to your fellow queens in New Yorker?

Louis Ferrante (46:43): I never met him. I will say a lot of people have accused him of his construction business and the buildings that went up in New York having some type of mafia involvement. But I will say this, I know for a fact all of the buildings that went up in New York had some sort of mafia involvement. So you couldn't operate as a building developer in New York, especially back then, without having to deal with the mafia controlled unions without having to deal with the mafia controlled construction companies without having to deal with the mafia controlled concrete companies. There was something the mafia had, which was called the Concrete Club. And any bid over a million dollars, which would be any bid for a skyscraper, was controlled by the mafia. They let any bids under a million, they let them go, but anything over a million, they wanted to control. My friend, my former friend, I haven't seen him in years, I did time with him also. Tommy Rizzo supplied the rebar for the Trade Center. He was a Colombo gangster, Colombo family mobster. The guy who was supposed to fireproof the supports in the trade center was a Gambino family mobster. And the Port Authority cleared him of any wrongdoing when the towers fell. But I mean, these are mobsters who have all these contracts in New York and all these building developers to some extent have to deal with them. Now, usually there's a GC on the job, a general contractor, and at some point or another way below, someone like him or someone like somebody, his associates in that industry, somewhere down there, there's someone dealing with the cash envelopes under the table and stuff. But I don't think it ever rises to the height of himself or people like him in the developing industry. I think they're much bigger. They go to the parties. If he has a flamboyant nature, that's a completely different thing. But I mean, as far as incriminating something that he may have done incriminating, I don't believe so. I believe it was done lower, much lower than him.

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