#118: David French, Pro-Choice Pastor Take On Abolitionism
Jan 20, 2023
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Pro-life writer David French and pro-choice pastor Skye Jethani critiqued abolitionism on Phil Vischer's podcast. Jethani explained his pro-choice stance, while they discussed the importance of cultural change in ending abortion. They highlighted the contrast between pro-life and abolitionist perspectives, addressing the impact of Donald Trump on political views.
Critiquing the historical Christian view on abortion as murder and the push for its criminalization.
Exploring the challenges of governmental legislation on abortion and the intimate nature of pregnancy decision-making.
Debunking misconceptions about the historical support for prosecuting women for abortions.
Distinguishing between merely ending abortion and actively pursuing its abolition in legal measures.
Questioning the alignment of political figures with pro-life movements and the importance of consistency in beliefs.
Highlighting the limits of legal actions in completely eradicating abortions and the need for broader societal solutions.
Deep dives
Addressing the Leftward Shift of a Well-Known Podcast
The podcast episode discusses the Holy Post podcast and its shift towards more liberal views. The hosts mention Phil Vischer, creator of Veggie Tales, and their disappointment in his stance on controversial topics like homosexuality and abortion.
Advocating for Abolitionism in Oklahoma
The episode highlights the ongoing efforts in Oklahoma to support an abortion abolition bill, Senate Bill 402. The hosts emphasize the importance of advocating for the abolition of abortion and promoting justice in the state.
Critiquing Arguments Against Criminalizing Abortion
The podcast challenges arguments against making abortion a criminal act, focusing on topics like mens rea and duress. The hosts criticize the notion of the need for extensive surveillance and state intervention, advocating for laws that punish the act of abortion as murder.
Navigating Supply - Side Regulations vs Demand - Side Approach
The discussion delves into the effectiveness of regulating the supply side of abortions versus focusing on the demand side. The hosts question strategies like targeting clinics or abortion pills, emphasizing the need to address the core act of abortion as murder.
Ending vs Abolishing Abortion
The hosts explore the distinction between ending and abolishing abortion, with an emphasis on the ultimate goal of completely abolishing abortions rather than simply reducing their occurrence through legal measures.
Recognizing Limitations of Legal Measures
The podcast acknowledges the limitations of law in completely eradicating abortions, highlighting the importance of addressing the root causes of abortion beyond legal enforcement. The hosts express a desire to see abortion ended while recognizing the constraints of legal actions.
Emphasizing the Need for Abolition over Ending Abortion
The episode emphasizes the difference between merely ending abortion and actively abolishing it. The hosts stress the importance of pursuing abolition as opposed to simply reducing the occurrence of abortions.
Critiquing the Pro-Choice 'Stay Out of Women's Health' Argument
The podcast challenges the pro-choice argument of keeping the government out of women's health decisions. The hosts critique the idea that laws criminalizing abortion infringe on personal choices, advocating for legal measures to protect human life.
Addressing the Ineffectiveness of Overreaching State Surveillance
The hosts critique the notion of extensive state surveillance and enforcement in regulating pregnancies for abortion prevention. They highlight the impracticality and ethical concerns of implementing widespread surveillance, advocating for targeted measures.
Recognizing the Complexity of Eliminating Abortion Through Legal Means
The episode acknowledges the complexities of using legal means to end abortion, emphasizing the broader societal and moral aspects involved in addressing the issue. The hosts recognize the inherent limitations of legal intervention in completely eradicating abortions.
The Historical View on Abolitionist Movements
Throughout history, there has been a consistent belief that abortion is murder and should be treated as a crime. Various Christian philosophers and church fathers such as Athanagoras, Basil the Great, Martin Bucer, Hippolytus, and Tertullian all considered abortion to be equivalent to homicide, punishable by law.
The Call for Equal Protection and Criminalization
The traditional Christian perspective has always upheld the sanctity of life, considering abortion to be equal to murder. The push for equal protection and criminalization of abortion spans centuries, emphasizing the need to view pre-born children with the same legal rights and protections as any other individual.
Misconceptions Addressed and Recent Shifts
Recent arguments that suggest a lack of historical support for prosecuting women who have abortions are debunked by a vast body of evidence showcasing the church's historical stance on abortion as a crime. The misperception that abolitionist movements are recent developments is corrected by highlighting the longstanding Christian belief that abortion is murder and a punishable offense.
Discussion on Abortion Legislation and Government Involvement
The episode delves into the complexities of governmental legislation on abortion, with Skye Jitani expressing reservations about the government's role in intervening due to the unique and intimate nature of pregnancy, emphasizing the intertwined relationship between a mother and her unborn child. Jitani's stance highlights the challenge of legislating such deeply personal and God-involved dynamics, questioning the appropriateness of government interference in such matters.
Debate on Pro-Life Movement Alignment and Abolitionist Stance
The podcast debates the nuances between the pro-life movement and the abolitionist stance, critiquing the alignment with political figures like Herschel Walker and Donald Trump. The conversation underscores the tension between pro-life beliefs and political affiliations, emphasizing the importance of maintaining consistency in supporting the abolition of abortion. The discussion sheds light on the challenges of navigating political landscapes while adhering to staunch pro-life convictions.
On Veggie Tales Creator Phil Vischer's podcast, Pro-life writer David French and pro-choice pastor Skye Jethani critiqued abolitionism. They offered arguments against abolitionism we hadn't heard before, and Jethani (who is ordained as a pastor and used to be an editor at Christianity Today) explained the "disturbingly compelling" pro-choice arguments that led him to come out as a pro-choicer in the episode. As harshly as truth and as uncompromisingly as justice, we refute their pro-life and pro-choice nonsense.
