The Seen and the Unseen - hosted by Amit Varma
Ep 366: Arghya Sengupta and the Engine Room of Law
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Law school encouraged critical thinking and recognizing nuance in discussions.
- Returning to India reinforced the commitment to make a positive impact in the country.
- Developing a legal framework true to India's cultural context is essential.
- Genuine engagement with the government can shape better laws.
- Shaping public narratives is crucial for bringing about long-term change.
- Balancing independence and impact is vital while engaging with the government.
Deep dives
Formative Years in Law School
Law school provided a transformative experience for me. It was a time of intellectual growth and questioning previously held notions. The atmosphere in the classroom encouraged us to think critically and challenge conventional ideas. We were exposed to diverse perspectives and engaged in spirited debates. This taught me the value of complexity and the importance of recognizing nuance in discussions. I realized that answers to complex issues are not always black and white, and it is okay to hold different views. It was also during this time that I began to understand the complexities of India as a nation and grappled with questions of identity and allegiance. Overall, law school broadened my horizons and shaped my intellectual evolution.
Evolution of Purpose
After law school, my sense of purpose continued to evolve. During my time in England, pursuing further studies at Oxford, I gained clarity about my commitment to India. I realized that I did not feel a sense of belonging in England and that law functions differently in different cultural contexts. This understanding reinforced my desire to make a positive impact in India. I recognized that India's diversity and complexity should be celebrated, and I wanted to contribute to the development and progress of the country. This experience solidified my decision to return to India and work towards fostering positive change.
Challenges Inspired Clarity of Purpose
During my time abroad, I also became acutely aware of the cultural context in which law operates. I witnessed the stark differences between legal systems and cultural norms. This realization made it clear to me that we should not aim to simply replicate foreign legal systems, but instead, develop a legal framework that is true to our unique cultural context. It further reinforced my commitment to focus on addressing the specific challenges and issues faced by India. I understood that my purpose was to contribute to the betterment of the country by navigating the complex and dynamic legal landscape.
Importance of Engaging with the Government
Engaging with the government is crucial in bringing about better laws. The government is the largest change agent in the country, and to make real change happen, it is essential to work with them. There is a recognition that the government is not a monolith, and within the bureaucratic machinery, there are individuals who genuinely want to make a difference. In the process of engaging with the government, it is important to provide high-quality research and independent legal advice. While it is necessary to present one's perspective, it is also crucial to acknowledge that the ultimate decision lies with the government. Having an open mind and genuine spirit of engagement can facilitate the process of shaping better laws.
The Power of Shaping the Public Narrative
Shaping the public narrative plays a significant role in bringing about long-term change. Engaging and influencing public opinion is crucial, especially for reforms that require a shift in societal values. By humanizing the issues and presenting them in a relatable manner, it becomes easier to garner support and understanding. Public narratives help in creating an environment that is receptive to change and can challenge prevailing sentiments. This process often takes time, but it is instrumental in pushing for reforms in areas related to social justice, healthcare, education, and other generational reforms. Public engagement serves to shift the Overton window and make previously extreme positions more mainstream.
Balancing Independence and Impact
Balancing independence and impact is a delicate endeavor. Complete independence means staying separate from the government and maintaining purity of thought, at the risk of limited impact. On the other hand, complete impact would mean unquestioningly serving the government's agenda without maintaining independence. Striking a balance between the two is vital. Maintaining integrity while engaging with the government requires providing independent advice, presenting research-backed perspectives, and recognizing the limitations of influence. Recognizing that the ultimate decision-making power lies with the government allows for better collaboration, while still upholding core values and principles. It is a process of navigating towards impactful change while preserving independence.
Lengthy Constitution and Distrust of People
The length of our constitution, highlighted by being the longest in the world, reflects a lingering colonial sentiment. It demonstrates a lack of trust in the people and their ability to make decisions, perpetuating the view that the state must have detailed control and regulation. This distrust is evident in provisions such as the inclusion of specific details about exports of jute in Article 273, which could have been left to negotiations between states. The presence of such provisions in the constitution reveals a lack of faith in elected representatives and a continuation of the colonial mindset.
Perpetuation of Colonial Institutions
The perpetuation of colonial institutions is another indication of the colonial nature of our constitution. Institutions such as the police service and the Indian Administrative Service, which were established by the British, are still in place. By preserving these institutions without significant reform, we uphold the hierarchical structure and centralized control that characterized colonial rule. This perpetuation hampers the transformation of power dynamics and prevents the development of a more modern and equitable system.
Continuation of Centralized Authority
The constitution also establishes a government that maintains hierarchical power and control over the citizens, similar to how colonial governments functioned. This can be observed in the dilution of fundamental rights, the presence of preventive detention, and the persistence of central authority over states. These aspects reflect a top-down governance approach and a persistent systemic imbalance of power.
The Need for Institutional Reform
The podcast episode discusses the lack of institutional reform in the Indian police service and the repercussions of maintaining a colonial system without any incentives or training for policemen to behave differently. The speaker emphasizes that this lack of reform perpetuated the brutalization of Indians by the police force, rather than serving them.
The Role of the State in Democracy
The podcast explores the deliberate decision made by the framers of the Indian constitution to have a state that towers over its citizens. This decision was based on the belief that the citizens were not ready for democracy and needed the state to have significant power. The speaker criticizes the provision in the constitution that legitimized preventive detention and questions why a more idealistic and rights-centric approach was not taken.
Challenges of Decolonization and Evolving the Constitution
The podcast examines the challenges of decolonization and the need for a constitution that evolves to meet the changing needs of society. It highlights the importance of critically engaging with the constitution and reevaluating provisions that may no longer be relevant. The speaker argues that decolonization should involve changing the power dynamic between the state and the citizen, empowering individuals, and considering the significance of duties alongside rights.
He's been an important force in shaping legal policy over the last decade. He's written an essential book on our constitution. He's worked closely with government -- but done so with a sense of public purpose. Arghya Sengupta joins Amit Varma in episode 366 of The Seen and the Unseen to talk about his life, his work and his learnings. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) Also check out 1. Arghya Sengupta on Twitter, LinkedIn, Times of India and Vidhi Center for Legal Policy. 2. The Colonial Constitution -- Arghya Sengupta. 3. Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy. 4. Insiders and Outsiders -- Amit Varma. 5. The Ideas of Our Constitution — Episode 164 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Madhav Khosla). 6. The First Assault on Our Constitution — Episode 194 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Tripurdaman Singh). 7. Murali Neelakantan Looks at the World -- Episode 329 of The Seen and the Unseen. 8. Rahul Matthan Seeks the Protocol -- Episode 360 of The Seen and the Unseen. 9. Apar Gupta Fights the Good Fight -- Episode 353 of The Seen and the Unseen. 10. The Life and Times of KP Krishnan -- Episode 355 of The Seen and the Unseen. 11. Subhashish Bhadra on Our Dysfunctional State -- Episode 333 of The Seen and the Unseen. 12. The Right to Property -- Episode 26 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shruti Rajagopalan). 13. Shruti Rajagopalan on our constitutional amendments. 14. 'कोस-कोस पर बदले पानी, चार कोस पर वाणी।' 15. Devangshu Datta Traded His Corduroy Pants -- Episode 348 of The Seen and the Unseen. 16. Ao. 17. Enid Blyton, Five Find-Outers, The Famous Five, Billy Bunter, Just William, Hardy Boys, Three Investigators and Jeffrey Archer. 18. Kane and Abel -- Jeffrey Archer. 19. Bimbo -- Jim Reeves. 20. Chandril Bhattacharya interviewed at Kolkata Literary Meet 2016. (Listen to him 5:40 onwards). 21. Chandrabindoo on Spotify and YouTube. 22. Rabindra Sangeet. 23. The Complete Adventures of Feluda — Satyajit Ray. 24. Chander Pahar (Bengali) -- Bibhutibhushan Bandopadhyay. 25. Sonar Kella -- Satyajit Ray. 26. Donoghue v Stevenson. 27. Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus — Ludwig Wittgenstein. 28. Law, Legislation and Liberty -- Friedrich Hayek.
29. Nationalist Thought in a Colonial World -- Partha Chatterjee. 30. The Truth Pill -- Dinesh Thakur and Prashant Reddy. 31. Taxi No 9211 -- Milan Luthria. 32. Kashmir and Article 370 — Episode 134 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Srinath Raghavan). 33. The Overton Window. 34. From Addict to Convict -- Neha Singhal, Arpita Mitra and Kaushiki Sanyal. (Scroll down on the page for Punjabi version.) 35. Punjab's drug menace: Secrecy renders women substance abusers 'invisible' -- Neha Singhal & Sumathi Chandrashekaran. 36. End of Life Care in India: A Model Legal Framework 2.0 -- Dhvani Mehta and Akshat Agarwal. 37. Gyan Prakash on the Emergency — Episode 103 of The Seen and the Unseen. 38. The Collected Writings and Speeches of Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar. 39. Annihilation of Caste -- BR Ambedkar. 40. Caste, Capitalism and Chandra Bhan Prasad -- Episode 296 of The Seen and the Unseen. 41. Where Have All The Leaders Gone? — Amit Varma. 42. The Federalist Papers — Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison. 43. Marching For Salt (2015) -- Amit Varma. 44. Two Concepts of Liberty -- Isaiah Berlin. 45. Why Freedom Matters -- Episode 10 of Everything is Everything. 46. Sandipto Dasgupta on the Anxious Administrator. 47. Fixing Indian Education — Episode 185 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Karthik Muralidharan). 48. Hind Swaraj — MK Gandhi. 49. Understanding Gandhi. Part 1: Mohandas — Episode 104 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ram Guha). 50. Understanding Gandhi. Part 2: Mahatma — Episode 105 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ram Guha). 51. Caged Tiger: How Too Much Government Is Holding Indians Back -- Subhashish Bhadra. 52. Of Gods and Men -- Xavier Beauvois. 53. Devi -- Satyajit Ray. 54. Jalsaghar -- Satyajit Ray. 55. Advaita on YouTube Music, YouTube, Spotify, Instagram and Twitter. 56. Junoon and Coke Studio Pakistan. 57. Now and Then -- The Beatles. This episode is sponsored by CTQ Compounds. Check out The Daily Reader and FutureStack. Use the code UNSEEN for Rs 2500 off. Amit Varma and Ajay Shah have launched a new video podcast. Check out Everything is Everything on YouTube. Check out Amit’s online course, The Art of Clear Writing. And subscribe to The India Uncut Newsletter. It’s free! Episode art: ‘’The Engine Room of Law” by Simahina.Remember Everything You Learn from Podcasts
