Ep. 238 - Cosmopsychism vs. Functionalism w/Drs. Philip Goff and Jonathan Schaffer
Jul 3, 2023
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Dr. Philip Goff and Dr. Jonathan Schaffer join the podcast to discuss the nature of the mind. They explore topics such as cosmopsychism, functionalism, the nature of pain, the evolution of consciousness, and the role of parsimony and definable concepts in theoretical frameworks. They also delve into mind-making and grounding principles, touching on the distinctions between subjective phenomenal properties and third-person physical facts.
Dr. Schaffer takes a functionalist approach, suggesting that minds arise from the right kind of functional organization, while Dr. Gough argues for panpsychism, positing that consciousness is fundamental to the cosmos or individual entities like machines.
Dr. Shaffer's physicalism differs from traditional views, rejecting a simple reduction of mental properties to physical ones. He suggests that a deeper metaphysical understanding, including grounding principles, is needed.
Regarding machine consciousness and AI, Dr. Shaffer's functionalist approach suggests that consciousness in machines would rely on the right functional organization, while Dr. Gough's panpsychist view argues that machines, being reducible to physical phenomena, would not possess consciousness.
Deep dives
The Nature of Minds
Dr. Shaffer and Dr. Gough both agree that minds are experiential states, such as pain, but differ in their views on why they exist. Dr. Shaffer takes a functionalist approach, suggesting that minds arise from the right kind of functional organization, while Dr. Gough argues for panpsychism, positing that consciousness is fundamental to the cosmos or individual entities like machines. Both acknowledge the challenge of recognizing and defining minds in new contexts, such as artificial intelligence.
Physicalism and Panpsychism
Dr. Shaffer's physicalism differs from traditional views, rejecting a simple reduction of mental properties to physical ones. He suggests that a deeper metaphysical understanding, including grounding principles, is needed. Dr. Gough disagrees, arguing that Shaffer's view is closer to dualism than physicalism. He sees physicalism as the view that consciousness is nothing over and above physical phenomena. Panpsychism, on the other hand, holds that consciousness is fundamental and may have different forms like cosmopsychism or biopsychism.
Metaphysics of Parties
Dr. Gough and Dr. Shaffer discuss their different perspectives on the metaphysics of parties. Dr. Shaffer suggests that a party is a unified individual event composed of smaller events, and posits a neurological fusion principle to explain their existence. Dr. Gough, on the other hand, finds this metaphysical approach unnecessary and believes that all we mean by a party is people dancing and drinking. They share a debate about the need for heavy-duty metaphysics in conceptual analysis.
Machine Consciousness
Regarding machine consciousness and AI, Dr. Shaffer and Dr. Gough see different implications depending on their views. Dr. Shaffer's functionalist approach suggests that consciousness in machines would rely on the right functional organization, while Dr. Gough's panpsychist view argues that machines, being reducible to physical phenomena, would not possess consciousness. Both acknowledge the challenges of recognizing and defining consciousness in AI and the need for further investigation.
The Debate on Parsimony and Grounding
In this podcast episode, two philosophers, Jonathan and Phillip, engage in a debate on the concepts of parsimony and grounding. Jonathan defends the idea of prioritizing the number of fundamental entities in a theory, while Phillip argues for considering the generative principles that bring new properties into existence. They discuss whether consciousness should be considered a new property when bridging laws or grounding principles are involved. Phillip presents a reductionist form of panpsychism as a more parsimonious viewpoint, while Jonathan emphasizes the importance of starting with quantitative properties in physicalist frameworks. Overall, the podcast explores the deep metaphysical differences underlying the philosophy of mind.
The Role of Substance in Metaphysical Views
In this podcast episode, the concept of substance priority is discussed as an alternative to existing metaphysical frameworks. Ross Inman's view, which focuses on substance priority, is compared to the debates between priority monism and micro physicalism. The question of whether substance priority offers a more parsimonious explanation is explored. While Phillip and Jonathan have different approaches to metaphysics, they both agree that the root of their disagreements lies in their underlying metaphysical assumptions. They further examine the nature of grounding and the distinction between quantitative and qualitative parsimony, providing insight into the complexities of metaphysical inquiry.
In episode 238 of the Parker's Pensées Podcast, I'm joined by Dr. Jonathan Schaffer and Dr. Philip Goff to discuss the nature of the mind.
You can listen to Dr. Schaffer's previous episode on the show here:
https://youtu.be/-RRepoXvDos
and Dr. Goff's previous episode here:
https://youtu.be/vx4duEaIwuo
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8:47 - Review of Panpsychism
12:33 - Priority Monism and Priority Microphysicalism
17:00 - Two Types of Panpsychism
20:12 - Is panpsychism a type of physicalism?
24:40 - what is physical/material?
27:44 - what is a 'pain'?
38:55 - The Metaphysics of Parties
48:08 - what is a mind?
58:52 - Why Panpsychism If You Have Strong Emergence?
1:04:00 - Parsimony and Schaffer's Lazer
1:11:44 - which view is simpler?
1:19:40 - Do tables exist?
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