237: Disadvantages as a Founder

Steli Efti:

Hey, everybody. This is Steli Efti.

Hiten Shah:

This is Hiten Shah. Today, on the Startup Chat, we’re going to talk about how  to deal with your disadvantages as a founder. It’s a topic that actually comes up  a lot, I think, for both you and I, Steli, just because we talk to  lots of founders, and lots of founders that are all different types from different countries,  obviously different genders, and that kind of variation, that variety of founder will give you  a perspective about what they perceive as their disadvantages. I’m sure both of us spend  a lot of time combating them or helping them combat them and come to terms  with them and whatnot. I’m super excited to talk about this. It’s one of those  topics that I actually don’t see a lot of people talk about in a way  that’s actually helpful.

Steli Efti:

Yeah. I love it. I hope, or one of my theories, at least, on why  the both of us are probably being approached about this particular problem this much is  because we do come from a diverse background, so people might view us as successful  founders and thinking, “Well, Steli, with his funny accent figured it out, maybe he can  help me figure it out as well,” or, whatever else association people have or connection  they make. Maybe we can just pin pong here and bring up examples of disadvantages  that founders have come to us with and what kind of advice we’ve given them,  as I’m assuming that a lot of people will be able to take away actionable  tidbits around that and then we can comment back and forth on these.

Hiten Shah:

Yeah, sounds great. I’m just going to kick it off first and just start with  something pretty simple, in my mind, that people are probably going to understand by the  end of this but not in the beginning, which is everything you think is a  disadvantage is actually your advantage. It’s not just a mindset, it’s the truth. That’s something  that I feel like people just … People who have the disadvantage, so to speak  … Even the word disadvantage bothers me. I’m sure you can guess that, Steli-

Steli Efti:

I could.

Hiten Shah:

People that are different, people that are pitching American investors, and English isn’t their native  language … It’s actually not mine either, except that I learned English very early as  a child, but my first language was actually Gujarati. It’s from India. It’s from the  state of Gujarat. That’s where my parents were from. Being in this country and being  surrounded by a lot of diversity, I think, it’s probably easier than ever to actually  make that uniqueness about yourself shine. Again, that’s where I start with founders when we’re  having these discussions because it’s like, how do you make that uniqueness to your advantage?  I’ll give one quick example, so I met Matild from Front, her company’s called Front,  they do what’s called a shared inbox and help you manage it, and she’s French  and she has a French accent. She came here … Actually, an introduction to me  from a friend of mine who runs a company, and he’s from Belgium, I believe,  I might be totally wrong about which country, it’s been a while, but I got  introduced because I meet foreign founders and advise a bunch of foreign companies as well, foreign meaning they’re not even located here, and I love it. I love it because  that diverse sense of thinking or that different set of thinking than somebody, let’s say,  who went to Stanford, graduated, started their company, raised money from Angels and here, and  was born in America. That’s what most people consider a founder, but that’s changing really  quickly, and has been changing in the last 5 to 10 years. Use these things  as advantages. The reason I bring up Matild is because when you meet her, she  speaks a lot about the advantages of where she came from in France and the  advantages that that’s brought to her company. I don’t need to go into the details  of them, but she’s just literally exuding that when you talk to her. Even the  first time I talked to her she’s lik, “Yeah, I’m from there, our teams there,  here’s why that’s important to us. Here’s where the cultural implications of that for our  company,” and all these things, and it was really awesome. Now most of her team  has moved here … I think all of her team has moved here and everything,  but it was just really refreshing to hear her approach. There’s another company I know  that is actually in South Africa, a couple of them in South Africa, and many  of you might not know this but in South Africa there is a great pool  of talented people, and they are about, I think, 50% of the cost because the  cost of living is lower there. You can literally have doubled the team compared to Silicon Valley for the same price, same cost at a company, and that’s super useful  as an advantage. There’s obviously disadvantages to being there if you’re trying to raise money  from American investors who have … Certain of them have biases towards not funding you  because you’re from a foreign country. But if you’re just able to have lower costs,  that’s a big advantage, and same quality and things like that, and that’s what I’ve  seen in South Africa over and over again in the couple of companies that I’ve  invested in and advised, and also other ones I’ve seen. I wanted to kick it  off with that just because I feel like these aren’t disadvantages. These are your advantages.  You just have to figure out how to frame them that way because they are.

Steli Efti:

Yeah, I would’ve bet money and won money … When I was thinking about this  topic, and I use the word disadvantage, I knew that both you wouldn’t like that  word and that you would start talking about it. I think that the way to  think about disadvantages or a way to reframe it, and people that have been listening  to the podcast for a long time know how much we care about words, I  think a better word for disadvantage is difference. You’re different. You don’t have a disadvantage,  you’re just being different, different than the norm in whatever area that you are seeing  yourself having a disadvantage. Being different depends entirely how you play that and how you utilize that, can be advantage, can be a disadvantage or cannot matter at all. I  think it really matters how you play that card and what your level of awareness  is on what to do with that. First thinking about this thing as a disadvantage  is basically just means that you probably have lack of confidence, and you’re latching that  on or you’re projecting that lack of confidence onto a specific thing that you think  is the reason why people don’t treat you the way you want to be treated  or why you don’t get the chances that you think you deserve. It’s a losing mentality. It’s a mentality that’s going to make you feel really, really bad, that’s going  to make you seem more and more “wrong in the world” that’s going to make  you feel even worse. It’s really going to be debilitating in your ability to take  charge, take action and accomplish the things you want. The one thing that I hear  a lot is, “Steli, can I successfully sell having a strong foreign accent in the  US?” When I talk to founders about this, or some other people, I always tell  them, “Honestly, it depends.” Let’s play this through, to be fully honest, having an accident  is … The US is a great country, actually, for having a foreign accent compared  to other countries because I find that at least on the coasts, people care less  about you having an accent than in other places around the world where it might  be a much stronger stigma to have of any kind of accent. So, one, it  depends where in the US you are selling. Are you selling to West Coast? East  Coast? Or, are you selling somewhere else? Who’s your type of buyer? If you’re selling  to tech startups in Silicon Valley, you can have any kind of accent around the  world. It really won’t matter that much because people are just used to it and  they don’t categorize you having a foreign accent, even if it’s a strong one, as  you being foreign or you not being successful, or smart, or accomplished, or competent. In  the Valley, it might not matter at all. In other areas in the world, it  might matter a lot. The other thing that we have to honestly talk about is  what kind of foreign accent are we talking about? Because there are ranges, there are  people that have an accent that is so strong that it’s very hard to understand.  In person, this might matter less because your body language, which takes up a lot  of the communication channel capacity, but if you’re cold calling companies, and it’s very, very  hard to understand what you’re saying, this is going to be difficult to do. My  advice would not be just pretend that it’s a strength and just keep cold calling  and nobody understands you, or go and get coaching and learn to get rid of  some of that so you might still keep your accent on a charming level, but  you’re still communicating more clearly to people, which might be a way to do but  might take too much time. But really just realize, “Okay, if people have a difficult  time to connect with me on the phone, do they have similar difficult time to  connect with me in person? Because, if not, maybe that’s the way that I need  to sell.” Or, is it social media, or email? What other channels or what other ways that I can really successfully sell where it doesn’t matter as much, potentially? Also,  what kind of foreign accent matters? Your example is are perfect one because, I don’t  know why this is, but if you have a French accent, typically around the world,  the French accent is seen as fairly charming and even sexy in some parts of the world, but if you have a strong accent from some other parts of the  world, it might even be Eastern Europe, a very strong Eastern European accent to an  American buyer, might just sound a lot harsher and harder and not as sexy and  charming, so what kind of an accent you have might, depending on the ears that  listen to you, being interpreted differently. You just need to me aware of that and  play with that and understand that … This doesn’t was play to accents but to  just broad it up in terms of taking the thing that makes you different from  the norm and actually making it a win is understanding that you are a unique  niche. That means that if you find the people that are similar to you within  the larger market, they’re actually going to respond to you much stronger than the average.  You mentioned South American entrepreneurs-

Hiten Shah:

South Africa.

Steli Efti:

South Africa, not South America, yeah. Sorry. If you’re from South Africa-

Hiten Shah:

Nothing wrong-

Steli Efti:

Nothing against South America, yeah.

Hiten Shah:

I just know about South Africa a lot more.

Steli Efti:

No, reason why South Africa is actually the example I really wanted is because there’s  a very famous and well-known VC, who is … Elon Musk is from South Africa  originally, there’s a bunch other really prominent figures and that are from South Africa, so  if I was from South Africa I would try to understand that there is a  niche of people … It’s not everybody in Silicone Valley but there’s a small subset  of people that are very successful in Silicone Valley that are from my country, which  means that they’re probably much more likely to relate to me and want to help  me because they had to walk a similar path that I have to go down  to accomplish what they’ve accomplished. It doesn’t matter if I’m Greek or South African, it  doesn’t matter if I’m of a certain skin color or gender … Of course, I  go into a large market and I understood because I’m different I’m … Only a  niche of that market will be just like I am, and relate to me one  on one, but that’s actually a good thing in my mind. We always talk about  focusing on your target customer and focusing on your niche and truly understanding who your customer is, that means you want to go to those few people that will respond  to you much more positively than with an average founder or an average person. Yes,  I think having self-awareness in terms of what kind of a difference your difference makes  and then going to the people that might respond really positively and make that disadvantage  an advantage. That’s a common thread that I’ve seen between a lot of people that  are trying to accomplish things that are very tough, maybe in a market where they  are different from the average, and they still win because they’re just aware of that  and they play it right. Another thing that I’ve heard oftentimes, and I know you’re  going to respond particularly well to this, is the “I’m so young,” “I’m so old,”  kind of thing, and we did … I think we did a whole episode, I  need to look it up and link it in the show notes, we did a  whole episode on “Am I too old to be a founder? What’s the right age?  When it is too old? When is it too young?” But that’s something I hear  oftentimes. People will say, “Well, what advice do you give a founder? I’m presenting to  these big, corporate, potential customers, and I’m just 18 years old,” or, “I’m 20, and  they’re not taking me seriously.” What would you say to people that think that they’re  not being taken seriously, they have a disadvantage because they’re way too young or they’re  way too old for that matter?

Hiten Shah:

Yeah. Age, what you basically want to do, and I this may sound super silly,  but you know how they say act your age to older people, so to speak?  I’d say you do the opposite of that. This is what I mean, the reason  … I’m going to answer this question in odd way just because, honestly, even a  lot of people I work with, I don’t even know their age, meaning I don’t  care. It doesn’t matter to me. The reason I said that it’s a weird way  to answer it is imagine what … My recommendation for anyone who think age is  their issue, whether it’s they’re really older or really young, either way, but I know  you mentioned young, young for their age or young for what they’re doing, whatever that  means now, although I don’t think that exists anymore, but … Okay, is imagine the  other person isn’t thinking about your age, how would you act? Because when I meet  young people I don’t think about their age at all. When I meet older people  who are doing anything, working or starting a company, whatever it is, I don’t think  about their age at all. I’m a little odd though because most people I know,  even people I work with, oftentimes they’re like, “How old is that person?” Or, whatever,  and I’m like, “You know what? I never thought to ask. I don’t care.” I’m  weird sometimes where it’s like, “How many kids do they have?” This and that, I  care on a human level but I don’t really bother to ask unless it just  comes up, and then we talk about it. I know some people are like, “That’s  part of getting to know someone, is knowing their age and how many kids they  have and how many brothers and sisters.” One person I’ve been working since 2005, I  just learned that they have two brothers. I just learned that today, and I’ve been  working with them for like 12 years maybe more, 13 years. It just never came  up. For me, it didn’t matter. For him, it didn’t matter either. To me, age  is one of those things where there is ages, and people look at you and  they try to guess what your age is and they have this bias because you’re  young or you’re old, or whatever, and to me it’s like if you’re the person  who’s on the other end of that, just imagine what you would do just …  Don’t act your age. Act appropriately for what you’re doing, what you’re asking for, what  you’re attempting to get from the other person. That would be my biggest piece of  advice, which is one of the hardest things to do unless you’ve experienced the other  side. Seriously, if you think you have an age problem, email us, tweet at us,  let us know this is something where you need to … I believe the best  way is to not worry about your age just like the other person shouldn’t be  worried about your age or concerned about it. They should be more focused on what  are you trying to accomplish and are you able to do it? Because your age has nothing to do with that. Time and time again, founders have proven that. Look  at Mark Zuckerberg, he was very young when that company was growing very fast in  the early days. I’m sure there were people that were like, “You can’t run this  company,” blah, blah, blah, but it didn’t bother him. It shouldn’t bother you.

Steli Efti:

I love that example, and I’ll throw one out there. This is random, and I  will be honest and say that I don’t know too much about this particular person,  but I remember the first few weeks when I came to the US 10 years  ago, I remember reading some Forbes article about back in the day, I think it  was the co-CEO of Pepsi, which was not just a woman but a woman from  India, and not just a woman from India but a woman from India that was  born and raised in India, and then much later, I think, came to the US.  Was still wearing very traditional Indian cloths to work. I remember reading about her being  the CEO of PepsiCo and thinking, “This is America is awesome.” In many places around  the world, a very traditional, national company, an iconic, national company, would not … It would be unacceptable to have a foreign person with very foreign culture run an internal,  national, cultural, iconic company, but in the US, in many ways, for all, its flaws.  This country is not perfect just like no other country is, but one of the  beautiful things is that you have these cases where it doesn’t really matter if you’re  doing really great, you can accomplish things even if it seems unlikely a weird …  Even if you’re in an industry that’s dominated by people that look totally different from  you and have a totally different background from you. Let’s point this out because I  think that both of us … Really, the thing that we’re shouting at people is  that attitude matters a lot and your mindset matters a lot, and if you focus  on your disadvantages, on what makes you different, it’s going to shine in the way  you talk. It’s going to project, and people are going to be responding to you in the way you expect them to. If you are either unaware or unapologetic about  what makes you different or if you even embrace and shine and love that about  you … Instead of trying to hide it, you’re actually highlighting what makes you different  and unique, and you’re proud of it and you’re embracing it and you focus on,  what is this about? Am I a great founder? Am I a great CEO? Do  we have a great product? This is really what truly matters at the end of  the day, not how old am I, what’s my accent like. If you focus on  these things, people will also focus on these things. I really want to just take  a few minutes at least and talk about what to do … Let’s say some  people listen to us and say, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that sounds great, but you  . You don’t know what it feels like when every time I go to have  a meeting with somebody, it’s so obvious that they’re treating me different, or that they’re  dismissing me, or that they’re not taking me seriously. It’s not me thinking this, I  can clearly prove and see that people are not open to meeting me or when  they meet me, they smirk at me and they don’t take me seriously or they  don’t listen to me.” I can be all positive and all like, “I’m going to  use this as an advantage,” and all that, but how do I respond to all  the negativity that comes my way or all the mistreatment, or whatever, the way that  people respond to me? It’s obvious they do it because of this disadvantage or this  difference. What do you do with all that negativity? How do you not let it  get to you, or how do you pretend that it’s not there?

Hiten Shah:

Yeah. How do you know it’s there?

Steli Efti:

Well, let me play the devil’s advocate.

Hiten Shah:

Please do.

Steli Efti:

“Every time I try to talk about business, there’s people smirking at me and they  don’t keep eye contact and they tell me to go,” whatever, “back to school or  they try to dissuade me from doing what I want to do and tell me ‘maybe you should work a few years and get more experience.'” Or, maybe they flirt  with me. I’m trying to talk about the business, I’m trying to talk about the  numbers, I’m trying to talk about the substance, and these people just never engage on  that substance with me and they talk about me going back to school or me  gaining more experience because I’m too young or something else? That’s the way I know  that they’re thinking I’m too young. That’s the way I know that they’re only focused  on me as a woman,” or as a man, or as a whatever, “verses me as a founder.”

Hiten Shah:

This one is a really interesting way to think about it because, one, some percentage  of the time this is just in your head and you’re bringing that to the  table, and so then you’re pretty much perpetuating that thought process in somebody else if  you’re already feeling it even before you get to the meeting. I like to assume  that I’m not going to be hit with any bias until I’m actually hit with  the bias as I’m in a meeting. That would be one thing I would recommend,  which is don’t go in thinking people are bias. I think that’s terrible, terrible way  to live your life. Seriously. Number two, another way I think about it, and I’m  curios what you think about this, is if you really feel that the bias is  coming at you and it’s real, then you have a choice, you can change your  … The best thing you can do is change yourself in some way. One way  would be not have meeting with people who you think are going to be biased  like that, even though I don’t necessarily suggest that because you’re going to have to  deal with this all your life. That’s the thing. You might already have been dealing  with it. This is a side note, but the people I know that are best  at dealing with it, they aren’t the ones that don’t get the bias put in  front of them or have that bias coming from somebody, they’re actually the people that  have gotten it so much that they’ve learned to cope with it. They’ve learned to  deal with it, they’ve learned to have things that they say about it. For me,  and you’re going to really love this, but I’m curios about what you think, the  way you handle it is the same way you handle sales objections. Tell us how  you handle sales objection in this case, if you put that lens on it. That’s  what I’m wondering because, seriously, you’re way better at it than me. For me, when  someone’s bias with me, I know my emotional immediate reaction internally, I can feel it,  and then I actually shut down for a little bit until I process it in  the meeting and then I go after it. Sometimes it takes like the second meeting  or I never meet with the person again because I’m like, “Oh, I really felt  that bias for real, and I didn’t like it. I don’t want that anymore.” But,  I don’t think you’re like that. I think you can offer a lot of great  advice to our listeners around this because the best tactics I’ve seen are very mirrored  by when you get a sales objection, what do you do?

Steli Efti:

All right, we’ll wrap this episode up with this tip. First, I’ll say that, in  some cases, certain objections actually disqualify us, so I want to make sure that I  know before I go into the interaction, what makes somebody a good fit? What makes  somebody qualified to buy from me? Which, in this case would be, you can translate  this to anything, what makes somebody qualified to be an investor? What makes somebody qualified  to become a customer of my business? What makes somebody qualified to become a partner  or to write a story about my company? I don’t just pretend that everybody in  a position of power, in a certain position, has the qualifications to be my investor  or be … Not everybody who has money should be my investor. If somebody’s an  asshole or somebody’s a person that thinks acts in a way that’s not congruent and  all aligned with how I want to run my business, I don’t want their money.  It’s important to know who’s your target customer, who qualifies and what disqualifies somebody? Just  somebody being difficult or critical, or misjudging you, that does not necessarily disqualify them. Instead  of just going, “Everybody who doesn’t like me, I don’t like them. They’re all assholes.” That’s not helpful, but trying to convince everybody, no matter how much of a misfit  they are because they have money is also not the right way to go, so  this is fundamentally … Decide what’s your line in the sand, who should buy from  you and not? What kind of objections disqualifies somebody from purchasing? Where you just go, “Thank you for being an asshole to me because I’m going to save the next  40 minutes. We’re going to call this meeting early and I’m going to go and  focus my attention on the next person.” It helps me save time. That disadvantage brings  out the worse in somebody else, which makes me learn who they truly are much  faster, which is an advantage to me long-term. Now, I’ll figure out what are the  objections that actually that I need to learn to manage because they come up again  and again and again and they don’t disqualify somebody. Then, my number one piece of  advice is you can’t hide from reality, you can’t run from reality, you have to  embrace reality. If I know that every person … Let’s say every person I meet  say, “Well, Steli, but can you really be Greek and run a sales company?” Or,  Can you really be that young?” Or, “Can you have that strong of an accent?  10 years ago my English was horrible when I arrived in Silicone Valley, so if  every single person I talked yo would’ve told me, “Hey, I’m not sure if your  English is good enough to run the start in Silicone Valley,” I would not start crying and be like, “Oh, everybody’s so unfair. Why don’t they like my accident?” Or,  “Why don’t they like my English?” What I would do is I would prepare for  that objection. I would embrace reality. Reality is people find my accent funny, it makes  them feel uncomfortable about me as being a successful founder, so how do I approach this? I would be proactive about it. I would think about, “Hey, when somebody has  insecurity about my accent being a disqualify from me being a founder, how do I  manage that objection? What is the right response? How can I put them at ease?  How can I make them comfortable and confident? What do I have to say to  make them realize that it doesn’t matter? It won’t matter for my success.” Then, I  would think about an answer. I would prepare that answer, I would write it, and  edit it, and think about it as different versions of a product, and the product  is convincing somebody my accent doesn’t matter, and I would be proactive about it so  when I would meet people … If it happens 9 out of 10 times, I  would not wait for people to bring it up, I would make it part of my pitch. “Hey, one of the things you’ll first notice is that I have a  funny accent.” I might even use a word where my accent is even funnier. “As  an example, let me show you how I say this word,” and I would make  it part of the pitch, make it part of the charm, and then tell them,  “Here’s the three reason why this won’t matter in what I do and here’s all  the facts of success I’ve already had as proof that it won’t matter, so let’s  talk about what truly matters. The things that are really important are X, Y, and  Z, and let’s talk about that.” I would prepare for these objections, I would figure  out a way to manage them, and I would embrace them. I would see that  this is an opportunity because here’s the reality, most people, when you give them an  objection, it crushes them. When somebody gives somebody else an objection, they expect the response  to be fairly negative. When people go, “I think you’re too young,” they don’t expect  you to smile, honestly smile and then go, “I love that you bring this up. I love your honesty. Here’s why I’m not too young.” Boom, boom, boom. “All right,  what else is in objection you have in mind?” People don’t expect you to respond  with that confidence with charm, with a smile, while keeping eye contact. They expect when  they go, “I think you’re a little too young. You should get more experience,” they expect that kind of feedback to crush you, they expect your eyes to go down  and look at the floor and your shoulders to fall and you’d go, “Well, yeah,  but I really think I could do it.” They expect that response because that’s what  you typically get when you give somebody really critical feedback or an objection. Just by  you being prepared for that, just by you embracing it and being able to manage  it and have something prepared to say, will make you stand out. It will make  the other side thing … “Oh, shit, this person seems incredibly confident. Wow, this person  seems to be a winner. Even when I give them critical energy and critical feedback,  and even when I throw an objection, they’re bouncing it back with ease,” which will  make people think that you are going to be a winner and successful because they  know that as a founder, you’re going to have all kinds of problems and balls thrown your way and objections thrown your way, and they see how you demonstrated how  you’re going to deal with it. Prepare for these things, embrace them, and that’s going  to make you stand out.

Hiten Shah:

Boom. That’s it.

Steli Efti:

That’s it.

Hiten Shah:

End of your objections.

Steli Efti:

All right, well, we want to hear your opinions on this. This topic is super  interesting and very dear and near to our hearts, so if you think you are  different or you have a disadvantage in some way that we haven’t touched on in this episode, if you want to share some examples of how you’ve successfully used these  disadvantages and differences, or how you’re stronger with them, just shoot us an email, @steli,  hnshah@Gmail.com. We want to hear from you, we want to help you, we want to  learn more from the community, so let us know if you have anything to share  there. I think that’s it from us for this episode. We’ll hear you very soon.

Hiten Shah:

See you.