The Nonlinear Library: LessWrong LW - Debate: Get a college degree? by Ben Pace
Aug 13, 2024
30:13
Link to original article
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Debate: Get a college degree?, published by Ben Pace on August 13, 2024 on LessWrong.
Epistemic Status:
Soldier mindset. These are not our actual positions, these are positions we were randomly assigned by a coin toss, and for which we searched for the strongest arguments we could find, over the course of ~1hr 45mins. That said, this debate is a little messy between our performed positions and our personal ones.
Sides:
Ben is arguing
against
getting a college degree, and Saul is arguing
for
. (This is a decision Saul is currently making for himself!)
Reading Order:
Ben and Saul drafted each round of statements
simultaneously.
This means that each of Ben's statements you read were written without Ben having read Saul's statements that are immediately proceeding. (This does not apply to the back-and-forth interview.)
Saul's Opening Statement
first - i do think there's a qualitative difference between the position "getting an undergrad degree is good" vs "getting the typical undergrad experience is good." i think the second is in some ways more defensible than the first, but in most ways less so.
For "getting the typical undergrad experience is good"
This sort of thing is a strong Chesterton fence. People have been having the typical experience of an undergrad for a while (even while that typical experience changes).
General upkeeping of norms/institutions is good.
I think that - for a some ppl - their counterfactual is substantially worse. Even if this means college is functionally daycare, I'd rather they be in adult-day-care than otherwise being a drain on society (e.g. crime).
It presents the option for automatic solutions to a lot of problems:
Socializing
high density of possible friends, romantic partners, etc
you have to go to classes, talk to ppl, etc
Exercise
usually a free gym that's at-least functional
you gotta walk to class, dining hall, etc
Tons of ability to try slightly "weird" stuff you've never tried before - clubs, sports, events, greek life, sexual interactions, classes, etc
I think a lot of these things get a lot more difficult when you haven't had the opportunity to experiment w them. A lot of ppl haven't experimented w much of anything before - college gives them an easy opportunity to do that w minimal friction before doing so becomes gated behind a ridiculous amount of friction. E.g. getting into a new hobby as an adult is a bit odd, in most social settings - but in college, it's literally as simple as joining that club.
Again - while all of these sorts of things are possible outside of college, they become more difficult, outside of the usual norms, etc.
For "getting an undergrad degree is good":
This is a strong Chesterton fence. People have been getting undergrad degrees - or similar - for a wihle.
It's an extremely legible symbol for a lot of society:
Most ppl who get undergrad degrees aren't getting the sort of undergrad degree that ben or i sees - i think most are from huge state schools, followed by the gigantic tail of no-name schools.
For those ppl, and for the jobs they typically seek, my guess is that for demonstrating the necessary things, like "i can listen to & follow directions, navigate general beaurocracies, learn things when needed, talk to people when needed, and am unlikely to be a extremely mentally ill, etc" - an undergrad degree is a pretty good signal.
my guess is that a big part of the problem is that, despite this legible signal being good, ppl have indexed on it way too hard (& away from other signals of legibility, like a trade school, or a high school diploma with a high GPA or something).
there are probably some instances where getting an undergrad degree isn't good, but those instances are strongly overrepresented to ben & saul, and the base rate is not that. also, it seems like society should give greater affordan...
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Debate: Get a college degree?, published by Ben Pace on August 13, 2024 on LessWrong.
Epistemic Status:
Soldier mindset. These are not our actual positions, these are positions we were randomly assigned by a coin toss, and for which we searched for the strongest arguments we could find, over the course of ~1hr 45mins. That said, this debate is a little messy between our performed positions and our personal ones.
Sides:
Ben is arguing
against
getting a college degree, and Saul is arguing
for
. (This is a decision Saul is currently making for himself!)
Reading Order:
Ben and Saul drafted each round of statements
simultaneously.
This means that each of Ben's statements you read were written without Ben having read Saul's statements that are immediately proceeding. (This does not apply to the back-and-forth interview.)
Saul's Opening Statement
first - i do think there's a qualitative difference between the position "getting an undergrad degree is good" vs "getting the typical undergrad experience is good." i think the second is in some ways more defensible than the first, but in most ways less so.
For "getting the typical undergrad experience is good"
This sort of thing is a strong Chesterton fence. People have been having the typical experience of an undergrad for a while (even while that typical experience changes).
General upkeeping of norms/institutions is good.
I think that - for a some ppl - their counterfactual is substantially worse. Even if this means college is functionally daycare, I'd rather they be in adult-day-care than otherwise being a drain on society (e.g. crime).
It presents the option for automatic solutions to a lot of problems:
Socializing
high density of possible friends, romantic partners, etc
you have to go to classes, talk to ppl, etc
Exercise
usually a free gym that's at-least functional
you gotta walk to class, dining hall, etc
Tons of ability to try slightly "weird" stuff you've never tried before - clubs, sports, events, greek life, sexual interactions, classes, etc
I think a lot of these things get a lot more difficult when you haven't had the opportunity to experiment w them. A lot of ppl haven't experimented w much of anything before - college gives them an easy opportunity to do that w minimal friction before doing so becomes gated behind a ridiculous amount of friction. E.g. getting into a new hobby as an adult is a bit odd, in most social settings - but in college, it's literally as simple as joining that club.
Again - while all of these sorts of things are possible outside of college, they become more difficult, outside of the usual norms, etc.
For "getting an undergrad degree is good":
This is a strong Chesterton fence. People have been getting undergrad degrees - or similar - for a wihle.
It's an extremely legible symbol for a lot of society:
Most ppl who get undergrad degrees aren't getting the sort of undergrad degree that ben or i sees - i think most are from huge state schools, followed by the gigantic tail of no-name schools.
For those ppl, and for the jobs they typically seek, my guess is that for demonstrating the necessary things, like "i can listen to & follow directions, navigate general beaurocracies, learn things when needed, talk to people when needed, and am unlikely to be a extremely mentally ill, etc" - an undergrad degree is a pretty good signal.
my guess is that a big part of the problem is that, despite this legible signal being good, ppl have indexed on it way too hard (& away from other signals of legibility, like a trade school, or a high school diploma with a high GPA or something).
there are probably some instances where getting an undergrad degree isn't good, but those instances are strongly overrepresented to ben & saul, and the base rate is not that. also, it seems like society should give greater affordan...