Ep. 83: Why Depression Exists: Jonathan Rottenberg on the Evolutionary Origins of Mood

In this episode, we explore the human mood system and the origin of depression. 

My guest is Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg, Professor of Psychology and Director of the Better Outcomes Laboratory at Cornell University. His work examines long-term functioning and well-being after depression and related conditions, with a particular focus on explaining why some people achieve good outcomes. He received his BA from Harvard University, an MA in History from Johns Hopkins University, and his PhD in Psychology from Stanford University. Dr. Rottenberg's research has been covered in popular outlets such as the New York Times, The Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal. He has authored two books: The Depths: The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Epidemic (Basic Books) and Depression: What Everyone Needs to Know (Oxford). His most recent digital outreach project is Ever After, a video series about life after depression.

Here are some highlights from our conversation:

• Jonathan's own experience with depression and how it shaped his research and mission
• The evolutionary origins of the mood 
• Mood as a system
• The parallels between human and animal depression
• Depression's survival strategy and modern stressors
• Distinctions between ordinary sadness and depression
• Why depression feels permanent—and why it isn't
• Rumination and how it wires the brain for recurring episodes
• The adaptability and resilience of the mood system
• How mindfulness can disrupt depressive thought loops
• Why some achieve 'better outcomes' after struggling with their mental health than others 

I think this episode will help many of you see depression and overall negative moods as part of a broader human experience rather than a personal failing. It's a must-listen for anyone interested in a deeper understanding of human emotion and the complex relationship between body, mood, and environment. 

Enjoy!