The Internal Revenue Service is a massive "Three Letter Agency." It's a bureau of the Department of the Treasury and (believe it or not) one of the world's most efficient tax administrators. In fiscal year 2020, the IRS collected almost $3.5 trillion in revenue and processed more than 240 million tax returns. It has over 90,000 employees.
It is also about as popular as Communism and Dog Catchers with most people! This makes running this most public of organizations a challenge for garnering resources and maintaining safety, stability and confidence in the revenue collection that makes this country go.
https://youtu.be/mXxwh0IR3Ig
Charles “Chuck” Rettig is a Shareholder at Chamberlain Hrdlicka in the Firm's Tax Controversy & Litigation practice and served as Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) from 2018 through 2022. He shares his experience with us and some pointers in dealing with the Service.
How the IRS operates and its priorities:
The volume of work and responsibility of the Internal Revenue Service
The structure of the agency
Data Science is the Future
What it does that people may not be aware of
Other parts of the Treasury opine on tax policy, but the agency provides guidance on workability
Chuck as the Commissioner appeared before Congressional Committees 37 times in 4 years.
Personality matters both internally and externally
The Commissioner has an 11 person security detail and receives 3 credible death threats / week.
What to expect in the next years:
Legislative Uncertainty
Administrative Challenges
The Service has almost 400 Million "clients" with huge disparities in sophistication
Resources are always a struggle- getting bang for the buck
Personnel departures from the Service
Prediction: Increased aggressiveness at the state level
What best practices in front of the IRS look like.
Setting up your affairs with a ling term strategy in mind
Interacting with an Examiner
Speed and Humanity
The 3 headed approach to family office planning
High end advisory work with the T&E group
The overall context in working with the structure and culture of the IRS - having a backdoor channel
Litigation support for those situations that need it.
Links
With Kelley Miller: The IRS Audits You- What's Next?"
Transcript of the Show
https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/
Frazer Rice (00:01)The IRS and taxation in general is in all sorts of tumult with the new administration. How to deal with the IRS, how to file your taxes, how to plan for things going forward. It's something to think about. We have Chuck Redig on and he is a terrific resource for all of our listeners. He's a shareholder at Chamberlain Herdlica. It is in the firm's tax controversy and litigation department.
Frazer Rice (00:26)Most importantly, he served as commissioner of the IRS from 2018 through 2022. So we have a little inside baseball here on how the commission works and things to think about in your own practice. So Chuck, welcome aboard.
Chuck Rettig (00:32)
Thank you for having me. It's a privilege to be out.
Frazer Rice (00:42)Well, it's a treat for us to have you and a real great opportunity. First and foremost, look, the three letters IRS are scary to just about anybody who comes in contact with them on a personal basis. Maybe break down a little bit how the IRS operates and what its priorities are.
Background
Chuck Rettig (01:01)Yeah, you know, when I went on board, somebody high up in Treasury, and I'm basically a kid from Los Angeles and Irish headquarters in Washington, D.C., and somebody from Treasury said to me, you know, congratulations, it's a Senate-confirmed position, and you are one of the five most powerful people in the United States, but you are absolutely the most hated. And I remember shaking his hand going, okay, thank you, you know, and this is something I'm still interested in doing.
Reflection
Looking back, I look back with a lot of pride.for the opportunity. basically a tax guy from a tax practice, 36 years in tax and state planning and other related things in one firm in Los Angeles, the opportunity to go on board of the IRS. And if you will make a difference. This was in 2018, which was about a year and a half-ish, right? Depending upon when you say COVID started and gave us the opportunity to go in and see what we can do to change things. But I always kept in my head.
the anxiety people have for the IRS. At all levels, you could be the most sophisticated tax professional, or you could be the taxpayer on the street. Individual, corporate, everything in between. And everybody interacts with the internal revenues of us. The IRS interacts with more Americans than any other public or private sector organization on the planet. And for a variety of reasons, there's a lot of challenges for the agency. But the operation itself,
The physical part of the operation, I'll just kind of give you a once over, is headquarters is in Washington DC, 1111 Constitution. I moved to Washington DC, had an apartment a few blocks away from there, thinking, oh, I'll just walk to work.
The IRS Commissioner and Security
And one of the first things you realize is, okay, well, the commissioner is not going to be out in public by themselves, tying into this most hated thing. had what mostly was an 11 person protection detail with you at all times, averaged one to three to five, what they call credible death threats per month. And it's hard to adjust to, right? It's like, if you will, for a federal government salary, you really have to want to do government service and make a difference when you see the things that most people are not aware of. But headquarters, Washington, DC, the…
The Size and Scope of the Service
Headquarter ability is 1.2 million square feet. You know, there were about 85,000 employees when I was there. Currently, it's about 100,000 employees, 519 offices throughout the world in terms of what we think of in terms of operations. So I was there in 2018 to 2022, and the commissioner has a term, my term expired November 12th, 2022 by statute. But just during the term that I was there,
IRS implemented seven major tax acts, right? Starting with TCJA in December 2017. So in five years, you're redoing all your systems, right? You have to figure out how you have to code the systems for changes in tax law. And in addition to that, you gotta be prepared. So you redo some of your systems and put them on the shelf so you're ready to go with the changes, but everything you think is gonna become tax law doesn't. So tremendous effort to try to get things moving and get it operating, if you will, behind the scenes. And then, you know.
Frazer Rice (04:28)And so, you were put in charge of this, the scale is massive. You're dealing with essentially one of the largest corporations in the country, even though it's a government agency. Chronically underfunded, as we always hear in the news, and so you don't have the resources to do what you want to do, either technologically or people-wise, and so on. And then you're called to account for why things go wrong when they do or how awful you are on a daily basis because you're the you're the you're the bearer of bad news oftentimes. How did you adjust to that?
Job Requirements
Chuck Rettig (05:01)So I think you have to have thick skin. You have to know why you're there. We were there to serve the country, right? What a lot of people said is, hey, Chuck followed his son into government service. My son is a major in the United States Army. When I went on board, my son was deployed. He's deployed three times. And sort of if you will serve in the country and look at the flag, I do pause when I look at the flag.
DC is different than pretty much any other part of the United States. Everybody points fingers. Nobody takes responsibility. Nobody takes accountability. And they all want to send out a tweet of, we just grilled the IRS chief. I testified in Congress about 37 times, Ways and Means Committee and Senate Finance Committee. And a lot of that also was during COVID, where we had tremendous struggles during COVID, as the rest of the world did, right? And so,
Frazer Rice (05:53)Huh. Right.
COVID and the IRS
Chuck Rettig (05:57)You just really have to hunker down, move forward. And by nature, the commissioner of the Inter-Northern Service, the only person who could ask me to leave would be the president of the United States. And I served equal terms under President Trump and President Biden and relied on the fact that, you know, if they want to fire me, they can fire me. But my lines inside to the employees were, we're going to do what we're going to do.
We're going to do the right thing. Very impartial, non-political at all.and we're going to move forward. And then I would always add in, if somebody wants to fire me, they can fire me. Of course, I would add in and send me back to my home in Los Angeles, to my friends, you know, get me out of the snow in DC. And then other people come in and go, it sounds like you're trolling to get terminated.
I go, no, but when I think about home compared to I think about DC, you know, maybe I'm ready. But that was my, if you will call it. My son in the military has a thing. If you think you're all that, bring it, right?
The Personal Touch
And I adopted that, I adopted that for the IRS. If people wanna take shots at us, if you will verbally, make your comments. I will say I got counseled on when I testified that the staffers for some of the senators thought I was intimidating the senators when I wanted to testify. Senate finance has 28 senators. And I said, it's one against 28, how can I intimidate them? They said, well, sir, you.
You have a look and then you throw tone if you disagree. I said,