Relationships...In the Beginning - Ep. 136

In the beginning, God was good. He created us for intimacy, co-dominion, and co-stewardship of His creation. Male-female relationships and marriage may have gotten distorted after the Fall, but in the beginning, it was not so. Listen in to hear what Genesis 1-3 has to say about God Himself; God’s original design for humanity; and God’s plan for salvation following the consequences of sin. You might be surprised to learn what’s actually in the creation narratives…and what’s not.

If you’ve learned something new here and are enjoying this series on “Marriage, Mutuality, and Gender Roles,” please leave a rating & review!

Podcasting by: Kensi Duszynski, MA, LMFT, CPC

Editing by: Evan Duszynski, MA

Music by: John Tibbs

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Welcome back to the Brave Marriage Podcast! Thank you so much for your earnest desire to grow as individuals, do marriage with intention, and live a mutually empowered, purposeful life in Christ. 

I’m really glad to be working my way through this series with you and really encouraged by some of the conversations I’ve been having lately. In upcoming weeks, we will get into a few interviews where we’ll dive more deeply into marriage and mutuality, but today, we’re covering marriage in the Creation account and after the Fall. I believe last episode, I said I’d cover Ephesians 5 as well, but that was a little ambitious, I found, and so that episode will drop on Monday, November 29th. And the reason I wanted to include these biblical teachings in a series on marriage, mutuality, and gender roles, is because I think for many of us, we’ve heard these passages so much that we often don’t even hear them for what they actually say, or we hear these verses so piece-milled to prove a point, that we don’t even understand their context. So what I’m hoping is that the questions posed in the last episode encouraged you toward your own reading of Scripture, because today, we’ll be diving into it together with fresh eyes and ears. 

Let’s start by taking a look at the Creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2: 

Genesis 1:26-31 says:

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’ [So notice, when God says, ‘let us make man in our image, and after our likeness,’ He’s referring to the relationality between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—whom we know as the Triune God. The word man used there is adam in Hebrew, and the them is ha’adam in Hebrew. It’s plural for humanity or mankind. And Scripture says that God made humans to have dominion over the earth and other created creatures—not dominion over each other.]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. [In other words, from the Hebrew, God created mankind, in the image of God he created mankind; male and female he created mankind.]

And God blessed them. And God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.’ And God said, ‘Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.’ And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.”

So in the first creation narrative, here in chapter 1, we have the Creator God, who in the Hebrew in chapter one, is referred to as Elohim. Elohim, God, we’re told, created the earth and humanity in His image. And compared to other creation accounts at the time, this God was described quite differently. For one, He was one—3-in-1; secondly, He was a good God; and third, He was a relational God, completely unified within Himself. 

In chapter 1, we’re zoomed out a bit, seeing how this all-powerful, relational-within-and-between-Himself God created the entire universe. If you can, imagine a movie that begins with a look at earth from outer space. From this aerial vantage point, we see that this God completed His work with the creation of humanity, instructing them to be fruitful, to multiply, to create, to rule, to subdue, and take care of the earth He created. And only after God created male and female—humans in His image—and instructed them to steward the earth for His glory, did this Creator God proclaim His creation “very good.”

Here’s how I read that: In contrast to other renderings of the text I’ve heard, woman isn’t the epitome or the icing on the cake of creation, nor is man the “cake” itself, or instructed to bear the weight of the world alone. It wasn’t the man or woman whom God called very good; rather, it was the fullness of His image and His instructions to man and woman to be like Him (relational beings who were to be procreative and co-creative and stewards of His creation) that God called very good.  

But even more important than that, in my view, is the point of chapter one, the reason why males and females have meaning and purpose and see themselves in this story at all, and it’s this: in contrast to other beliefs about creation and different deities, the Hebrew people believed in a relational, monotheistic, Triune God who wasn’t afraid or threatened to create humanity in His own image, as other gods are portrayed, who valued human life so as not to engage in human sacrifice, as other religions did, and who created both man and woman with free will, whereas other creation narratives cite the creation of woman as a necessary evil, the gods’ punishment to men for their arrogance. Instead, the God of the Bible is loving toward His creation, values human life, gives humans free will, and instructs both men and women to rule, fill, and subdue the earth. This is a story about an all-powerful deity who created man and woman to be in relationship, to bear the fullness of His image, including, in how we act upon the created earth together. 

Now, as we take a look at the second creation account in Genesis 2:15-25, I want you to imagine we’re zooming in, moving from a distant view of the earth or an aerial view of the earth, to a zoomed-in, up-close, and personal look at the creation of man and woman. So imagine, revisiting the creation of humanity on the sixth day, and this time, we’ll get to know God not just as Creator and relational-within-Himself, but as the personal God of Israel, who is also very much relational-with-us. 

Starting with verse 15: 

“The LORD God [that is, Yahweh Elohim] took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’ 

Then the LORD God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.’ [Why? Because as we saw in chapter 1, God is a relational God and we are created in His image. Verse 19…] 

“Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them [right, here we get this picture of a personal God who meets the man, who brings things to Adam to see what he will name them. It’s like God is delighting to watch Adam create as God had instructed him to.] And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.”

Meaning, he was creating and ruling and stewarding the earth alone, outside of a relationship with someone like him. But remember, in Genesis 1:26-31, God did not call creation completed until male and female were both created and both co-creating.

Now in Hebrew, a ‘helper fit’ or a ‘helper suitable’ is translated as ezer kenegdo, meaning “a strength, an aid, or an ally who is like”, not a help who is subpar or who does a husband’s bidding. I was in a book club a few years ago where a woman, a pastor’s wife, shared that back when her husband was pastoring, they attended a marriage conference for pastors and pastors’ wives, where the speaker likened the husband-wife relationship to the relationship between a CEO and his executive assistant. But if the speaker had taken a look at the Hebrew, rather than just putting his own capitalistic cultural spin on the text, he would have discovered that the word helper, or ezer in Hebrew, is used 21 different times in the Old Testament to describe God’s strength and aid to Israel! So I can hardly imagine that what God had in mind when He said, ‘I will make an ezer who is suitable to, and like Adam,’ is a female secretary for Adam. Furthermore, if God Himself is an ezer, and if the Trinity is 3-in-1, equal in power and glory, this has significant implications for the way men and women are to partner to bear the fullness of His image.

Let’s keep going, verse 21…

“So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, 

‘This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman [ishah in Hebrew], because she was taken out of Man [ish in Hebrew].’ 

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.”

As I read this, God delights to see the man respond to the woman He places in front of him. The animals got named; the woman got a poem in verse 23, which is what that indentation represents in your Bible as you read it. And the man essentially says, “at last, I have a help who is like, yet somehow, different from me, so that now, I am fully created in the image of God because now, I am in relationship, not just with God, but also with someone like me—a help who is like me.” And jumping back to Genesis 1:28, this is where God blesses mankind. This is where God gives His instructions to humanity to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, while ruling over the earth and its creatures. So in the garden, in God’s perfect plan for creation and for humanity, there is intimacy—between God and humanity, between man and woman, between husband and wife. There is love, there is relationship, and there is procreativity, co-creativity, and co-dominion over other created creatures, but not over each other.

This is Eden. This is the picture of male-female relationality, of co-leadership in respect to the earth, and of co-servanthood in respect to God. Right? God did not create us for hubris, dictatorship, or human oppression on the one hand, nor did He create us for self-degradation, powerlessness, or purposelessness on the other; he created us for intimacy, relationship, and mutual empowerment as we co-labor with Him and with each other. 

But then, we get to chapter 3 and everything goes awry. The serpent enters the picture, man and woman sin, the woman is deceived, the man says nothing and blames Eve, and the consequences of the Fall enter in. 

Let’s take a look at Genesis 3 from the New American Standard Version.

“Now the serpent was more cunning than any animal of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God really said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

Notice here, the contrast between the writer of Genesis, who cites the personal name of God, Yahweh, or LORD God, and the serpent, who refers to God as Elohim, God rather than LORD God. Right, the serpent, representative of Satan, is even deceptive in his language, distancing the woman from God in the way that he’s framing Him, even before casting doubt as to what God said. So she then picks up his language. 

“The woman said to the serpent, ‘From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”

The serpent said to the woman, “You certainly will not die! For God knows that on the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil.”

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.”

Now, we have the gift of hindsight and more importantly, Jesus, to help us see where Eve went wrong here, and what led man and woman to sin. As John recounted in 1 John 2:16, it was “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life” that led Eve, and Adam, to sin—these things, we’re told as not coming from the Father but rather, from the world.

So the strategy I see in the serpent here is: 1) Create discomfort and discontentment. 2) Create distance between God and His people by twisting the Word of God. 3) Lure them in with worldly things (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life) and lead them to doubt God’s good plan, nature, words, and intentions toward them. 4) Wait for them to choose disconnection and disobedience to the LORD God, their personal connection to the Father. 

And what’s wild is that we see this same old strategy that satan used with the woman, used with Jesus, in Mark chapter 4. Before Jesus began his earthly ministry, he was led into the wilderness and tempted by the devil himself. And after 40 days and nights of fasting and growing weak in the flesh, the devil starts into Jesus. First, he tempted Jesus by questioning His relationship and sonship to the Father, saying in Mark 4:3:

“If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread”—the lust of the flesh. But amazingly, in His hunger (at least to me, because I am good for nothing when I’m hungry, just ask my husband) Jesus said to his tempter: “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.’” 

Second, the devil tempted Jesus by asking him to stand on the pinnacle of the temple in the holy city, saying:

“If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for after all, You know it is written that ‘God will give His angels orders concerning You…On their hands they will lift You up, so that You don’t even strike Your foot against a stone”—the boastful pride of life. But not pulling one past Jesus, Jesus replied: “On the other hand, it is written: ‘You shall not put the LORD your God to the test.” 

And third, Mark 4:8 says that:

“Again, the devil took Him along to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Jesus, ‘All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me’—the lust of the eyes. But thankfully, Jesus said to him, ‘Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”

So Jesus shows us what could’ve been said here, by the man or the woman in the garden, seeing as how they were both right there when the serpent made his case. They could have said: “Serpent, we have everything we need, every green plant and tree for food, not to mention a perfect, loving relationship with God.” They could have said, “on the other hand,” like Jesus did, “God told us to be fruitful and have dominion over the earth, not to be ruled by it.” They could have said, “Go away, Satan! For God has created us, blessed us, instructed us to be like Him!” But they didn’t.

And so, jumping back into Genesis 3:7…

“Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves waist coverings.

Now they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

So there they were, having been emotionally, spiritually, relationally, and volitionally disobedient to God, after first being distanced and distracted from Him…and here comes God in His personal, present nature (noting the shift in language back to the use of LORD God, Yahweh Elohim) desiring to talk with them and be in relationship with them both.

Verse 3:9:

“Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”

Okay, God knew where the man was, but because He’s a personal God, He wanted the man to show himself.

He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

Now, someone recently told me that what they’ve primarily been taught about these few verses goes something like this, “Who does God come to after Adam and Eve sin? Does God come to the woman? No, He comes to the man to take ownership for his family. So men, God is going to come to you and expect you to take responsibility for your wife and kids. That is your job.” 

But a few things to note about this widespread spin on Scripture: 1) This is a wild extrapolation out from the text and what it actually says. 2) Telling men to be men of God and to lead their families toward kingdom-living is one thing. But it’s really easy to move from a posture of, “Men, let’s be intentional about making disciples of the next generation” to “Men, you should be ashamed of yourselves and better for your wife and kids.” The message of the Gospel is that the Son of God died and was resurrected for us all, to free us up to co-lead, as God originally intended, and to free us up from the weight of our sin and guilt to shame so that we might live more fully and freely in Christ, with that translating into our families, not a message of guilt and shame. And listen, this is a spiritual formation issue for those spreading this message. 

So whoever is spreading these messages without really thinking about what’s being communicated to men, can we please stop teaching men (and women) that this is the Gospel? Christ did not die for good Christian men to give themselves a hard time and try to man up as if, on the other side of redemption, they still need to earn God’s respect, love, or approval of their worth (because God has already given it)! Christ also died that men and women, husbands and wives, might have a chance at healthy, intimate relationship again, as before the Fall, through Him—not to be stoic and distant or overly-responsible or placating and pacifying of their wives! That is not biblical, that is cultural. It’s an unhealthy teaching that doesn’t reflect Christ so much as it reflects the Pharisees, and it’s messing otherwise healthy families up. 

So back to Genesis 3: God calls out to the man, and the man replies not with stoicism or self-degradation, saying, “God, I know I’m worthless, I know I need to be a better man and just, man up and measure up.” The man first responds to God here with vulnerability, saying, “I heard you, God, I knew you were present, and honestly, I was afraid. I was embarrassed and ashamed of my nakedness, and so I hid from Your presence.”

And again, based on lots of teachings in the church, we would now expect God to deliver His wrath. But God doesn’t. God moves in, and treats the man like a Father would. He asks questions, He’s about to discipline, yet, but He engages the man and woman in a personal, relational way. 

“And He said, ‘Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?’”

Now he’s being confronted for his actions. And this is where the guilt, shame, and blame come in. Because it can be hard to look at ourselves in light of a good, gracious, perfect, holy, powerful, loving Father. But it’s hard to look at ourselves not because our Father is pointing a finger or has unrealistic expectations of us (He merely asked a question). It’s because we feel the weight of our sin, and when we do, we turn inward on ourselves (shame) or we turn outward on others (blame). 

“The man said, ‘The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me some of the fruit of the tree, and I ate.’

Then the LORD God said to the woman, ‘What is this that you have done?’”

Again, this is the God of the universe who is treating the woman, now, like a Father, and engaging her directly to get the full story (even though He already knows, can any parents relate?) 

“And the woman said, ‘The serpent deceived me, and I ate.’”

Imagine this. Imagine you have a son and daughter. Adam is your firstborn and Eve is your second-born. And you conceived (because you’re human) and created little Adam and Eve in love, and so they bear your resemblance, and you’ve given every good thing you have to them. You’ve raised them on acres and acres of property, apple orchards and vineyards and orange groves that you are delighted for them to roam in and play in and eat from to their little hearts’ content. Now these fruit groves are a result of your own work, the benefit of your labor, but just by being born into your family, they’re heirs of what you created. And they’re your kids, so you’re pleased to have them delight in all that you’ve provided for them. The only thing you’ve instructed them not to do—for the sake of their lives and relationship with you—is eat the fruit from one single tree among thousands on your property. 

But in striking up a conversation with a snake on your property, what do they go and do? They eat from it. They disobey you. They question your judgment, your reasoning, they mistrust your heart for them, and they deny a thousand good gifts you’ve given them in exchange for something you know they can’t handle. 

Okay, so if this were you, how would you be feeling? Maybe you’ve been here before with your own children. Does that scenario evoke feelings of frustration, disappointment, hurt? A desire to protect them from that stupid snake? 

Let’s jump back into the story: 

“Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you more than all the livestock, and more than any animal of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life; and I will make enemies of you and the woman, and of your offspring and her Descendant (that is, Jesus); He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel.”

So before turning His attention to punish or curse or incur His wrath upon the man and woman, God curses the serpent. He deals with him first, letting him know that spiritually, there will come a day when Jesus is born and deals directly with the serpent and his demons, as well as make a way for the children of God to be redeemed and righted in their relationship with the Father. God so loved the world that the first three things He did after Adam and Eve sinned was talk to Adam and Eve about it, deal with the one who hurt and deceived His children, and promise to make a way through Jesus for His children to be reconciled to Him. 

Verse 16…

“To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall deliver children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Then to Adam, in verse 17:

He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; cursed is the ground because of you; with hard labor you shall eat from it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; yet you shall eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

So, as a result of sin and the curses God gives, we immediately see the consequences for both women and men: for the woman, the hardship of her labor; for the man, the hardship of his labor; and for both, the challenge of oneness and intimacy. Remember, God told the couple back in Genesis 1:26, “Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the other creatures I created!”  But the consequence of sin was that the woman would play her part in the creation mandates with difficulty—with pain in bearing children, with a heart that would tend to desire her husband’s approval and lordship over God’s. Likewise, the husband would play his part in the creation mandates with difficulty—with pain, sweat, and toil in his work, and with a heart that would tend to desire to rule over his wife instead of co-ruling over creation with her. Read the text. There’s no hint of headship before the Fall; it’s only introduced after the fall along with everything else we are still struggling with today as Christians in a fallen state and fallen world.  

Now, this is a marriage podcast, so I want to focus on the interpersonal couple dynamic for a second. In my practice, this is what I address: the sever in relational intimacy, issues of power imbalance, and desires that tend to move couples in unhealthy, dysfunctional directions—rather than to God first, and toward each other, second. 

This is another part that’s interesting to me, and I first heard this come from Bruce C.E. Fleming, author of Made in Eden. God doesn’t directly curse Adam, nor does He directly curse Eve. What He does is, He curses the serpent in response to Eve’s confession and blaming of the serpent. And He curses the ground, in response to Adam’s confession and blame of both God and Eve! So even though from the point of the Fall on, the man and woman lived under the curse, God still treated the actual man and woman with love, with protection, and with discipline, as a Father would his own children. This is consistent with the good, loving, just nature of God. 

Back to verse 20:

“Now the man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.

And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—therefore the LORD God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.”

So even after all this, God is still gracious, just as a loving parent would be. He clothes Adam and Eve. He provides for them. He delivers consequences, yes, but He makes a way for them to live. 

So here, we have the beginning of civilization as we know it, with Adam being instructed to cultivate the ground from which he was taken, and Adam and Eve co-partnering and co-parenting within the consequences of the Fall and their sin. And the rest of Genesis is a collection of stories about how good and gracious and unlike other gods, Yahweh is, and how dysfunctional families are as a result of sin, until in the midst of our broken and fallen state, God’s grace and goodness intervenes. 

Now, I want to take you from Genesis…all the way to the last chapter of Revelation to see if you observe any parallels between the two depictions of the garden city.

In chapter 22:1-3, John writes:

“Then the Angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and His servants will serve Him.” 

So, remember that tree of life that God protected after creation? Well, here we see it again at the end of time, except this time, without any curse, with trees that consistently bear good fruit for healing, and with God’s servants serving not themselves or their own agendas—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, or their boastful pride for life—but serving Him, as the throne of God and the Lamb dwell among God’s servants in the garden city of God. 

So, if all 66 books of the Bible comprise this meta-narrative, the story of God and His desire to save us, to give us eternal life, and to be in relationship with us—not because He has needs like us, but just because He’s a good Father—then where are we currently in that story, and what does that mean for our lives and relationships? 

Well, Jesus, the Son of God is the climax of this story. 

As we talked about last episode, the Son of God willingly took on flesh, dwelt among us, taught us how to live and how to die, becoming the substitutionary atonement for our sins, replacing the required animal sacrifices from the OT with Himself, the once and for all, redeeming Lamb of God. 

Jesus came not to nullify the Old Testament law, but to fulfill the Scriptures and show us the Spirit of the law. He taught us that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Then, He died, was resurrected, and ascended into heaven, leaving us with the Holy Spirit to empower us to live faithfully as His bride, the church. 

So as His Church, His body, His bride, we now live in this in-between state where Christ has come to redeem us, forgive us, and make a way for us to live in Him, as servants of Him, now, before He returns….but the end has not yet come. We still live in a world impacted by the curse and the consequences of sin, even as we live as believers with the Holy Spirit to empower us to live as Jesus showed us how to live, and as Jesus taught us to live. 

Which begs the question…how then shall we live? 

I had a really great conversation with Evan last night after giving a talk to college students on partnership in marriage, and Evan was saying, “you know, the picture God gave us for relationship before the Fall was loving Him and loving each other. Then the Fall happened. But what does God tell Moses, and what does Moses tell Israel? To love God and to love each other. And what does Jesus tell His disciples and followers to do? To love God and love each other. So the picture of Adam and Eve in the garden is what we, as Christ followers today, and as married couples in particular, should be aiming for in our relationships with one another.” And I wanted to share his thoughts with you because I couldn’t have said it better myself. The whole story of Scripture illustrates our journey as humans toward the kingdom of God, and in a sense, back to the original state.

In upcoming weeks, you’ll hear from authors, pastors, and podcasters regarding their thoughts on Scripture, gender equality, and mutuality in marriage. All coming from different places and stages of life and marriage, and I can’t wait for you to hear from them. So tune in next time, where I’ll talk to a couple in ministry together, who will share some of their thoughts on what Scripture has to show us and on what God has to offer us through his designing us for co-leadership and mutual submission in marriage. 

Thanks, friends, for joining me today. You all know I’m passionate about teaching mutuality in marriage, and so if you’ve learned something new in this series, please, please hit the share link and text this to a friend. It would also mean a lot to me if you would take a quick second to rate and review the podcast. I spend hours on it each and every time and I’d be grateful for your feedback and letting others know if you enjoyed it. 

This has been episode 136 of the Brave Marriage Podcast. I’m your host, Kensi Duszynski. Podcast editing is by Evan Duszynski. And music is by John Tibbs. Have a great week, everyone, and I’ll talk to you again soon.