About our guest:

Lian (she/they) is a Developer Advocate and community organizer, probably best known for creating Kuberoke, the first and only Kubernetes Karaoke Community. Earlier in her career, Lian worked as a community manager and quality manager for various browser games. In recent years, she moved into the Cloud Native space, working as a Cloud Native Engineer, and then as an Engineering Manager. In October 2021, she turned her passion for community and developer happiness into a profession, by breaking into Developer Advocacy for Developer Tools. Lian is also an active member in various communities, including being part of the organization teams of DevOpsDays and ServerlessDays Amsterdam, as well as the ServerlessDays core team. In 2023, she was elected Technical Lead for the CNCF Technical Advisory Group (TAG) on Cloud Native App Delivery, focused on outreach and enabling new members for the TAG.

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All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

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Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. Geeking out with me today is Lian Li. Welcome.

LIAN: Hi. Thanks for having me.

ADRIANA: I'm so excited to have you on. And we are actually recording at KubeHuddle today.

LIAN: Yay.

ADRIANA: Yay. So very exciting. So we are actually both in Toronto. So as we...before we get started into the meaty bits, I always like to start off with my guests answering some lightning round questions. So are you a lefty or a righty?

LIAN: Righty.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

LIAN: I have an iPhone. I prefer...it's more practical.

ADRIANA: Fair enough, fair enough. It's funny, some guests are like, no, this is it. Like, I am staunchly in favor of this or the other. And others are like...eh?

LIAN: I'm almost embarrassed that I have an iPhone, but I have so many Apple devices. Just made sense. But I don't. I don't want to. I don't want people to think I'm a cult member.

ADRIANA: Fair enough. I get it, I get it. Okay, next question. Mac, Linux, or windows? Which do you prefer?

LIAN: I guess I just answered my question.

ADRIANA: I think so.

LIAN: I was very against MacBooks a long time, but then I had one and it was actually...I had to give a presentation. It was so much easier on a MacBook with Keynote and everything. So since then I've been like, it's easier. Why make your life hard just for street cred?

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, next question. What's your favorite programming language?

LIAN: I have to say it's probably JavaScript. There's a lot of things that are weird with JavaScript, but it's the first language that I really understood. Yeah, that's, you know, it's like your first love. Yeah, you always feel very special about that one. And I just think that the way that, you know, the, the whole events are working, it's just really cool.

ADRIANA: Nice. Awesome. My first language was BASIC.

LIAN: Oh, wow.

ADRIANA: So from the olden days.

LIAN: I wasn't gonna say old, but I mean, does.

ADRIANA: Anyone even code in BASIC anymore?

LIAN: Like, I don't know, but the people who are making a lot of money, I think because there's no one there anymore, I can maintain it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, we are an extinct or endangered species. I don't think I could even remember how to code in BASIC anymore.

LIAN: I've never been able to do it.

ADRIANA: All right, next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?

LIAN: Well, hmm. I think at this point I prefer dev. I haven't been, like, developing production code for a long time, and just the other day I was just solving an engineering problem and it was. Made me so happy really, going in there, reading documentation, finding something out, coding something, and then it works. It really reminded me where I got into this business in the first place. That's so awesome.

ADRIANA: I love that. Like, honestly, what makes me happy is like whenever I'm, like, doing actual dev for my job, like, if I go through stretches where I'm not doing it, I actually get really depressed.

LIAN: Yeah, I can. I can imagine. For sure. Yeah. This is so much fun. It gives you that sense of satisfaction.

ADRIANA: Yes, yes. And even if, like, you're the only one who knows about the problem that you solved, then it's like, I did it!

LIAN: You also look at your code afterwards and just be like, oh, that was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did something well.

ADRIANA: Yeah, totally, totally relate. Okay, next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

LIAN: What are these questions? Is tabs versus space is the last...Okay, that is JSON, I guess JSON, because again, JavaScript world. Yeah. But also you don't have these weird indentation things where, you know, like, because it made an indenture error, then you. YAML is invalid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't really happen with JSON. Probably that. Although I think YAML is a subset of JSON.

ADRIANA: Yeah, true.

LIAN: I know. Oh my God.

ADRIANA: I know. Which is a bit of a mind fuck.

LIAN: No. Right?

ADRIANA: Like, really, you're related?

LIAN: Yeah. So really there is no real answer to this, because YAML is JSON.

ADRIANA: That's true. That's true. That's a good one. Okay, next question. Spaces or tabs?

LIAN: Spaces. Spaces. I did not. I was pro tabs for a long time, but then someone explained to me that was basis...It's better for accessibility, apparently. I forgot why, but, you know, that's good enough for me.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I was team tabs for a while, but then I converted to spaces.

LIAN: Yeah, and just stick with it, whatever you choose.

ADRIANA: Exactly, exactly.

LIAN: Okay, is the next question VIM versus EMACS? Because I don't have an opinion on that.

ADRIANA: No, it's not. It's not. Okay...do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

LIAN: Oh, um, it depends, but probably video mostly. Sometimes though, you know, I. I want to take my time. That's when I want to read something.

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

LIAN: Oh, okay. Hey, I actually have a podcast myself that is about superpower, like, basically what superpowers people have.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: But I only recorded like three episodes. Don't...don't watch. What's my superpower? I think I am...so when people ask me what I do for work and they're not, like, in this...sphere...space...I sometimes tell them I'm a professional friend maker. And I think that's what I'm good at is like making people feel at ease and let them have them open up about things that they love and they're passionate about, about their problems, which I think is a big part of DevRel.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: So I feel like that is probably what also, like, sets me apart from other people in tech.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. And you know what? Like, I met you last year at KubeHuddle, and I remember, like, right away feeling at ease, chatting with, you.

LIAN: I do have a couple of tricks for that. It's not just like, I'm not like a natural people...you know, please or something like that. But I do feel like, especially in this industry, that if you really make an effort to get to know people, you can feel that people are just really open to that and they really want to have that relationship. It's just that for some reason, we're kind of shy about it.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. You know, like, one of the things I always think about, and I think I've read this somewhere where, like, introverts just want, like, an extroverted person to adopt them. And for me, like, I'm naturally introverted. And so I love it when I see someone who has a friendly face where I feel like they're super approachable and it's like, oh, come adopt me. Yeah.

LIAN: And then, like, you can almost become not an extrovert, but you can get into that same energy also. Yeah, I love to do that after conferences, like, just like, organize a small dinner, for example, there's like, maybe 20 people. Not everyone, obviously. And that's when you can, like, create so many great, you know, relationships. And I love to also then bring in new people, especially, like, maybe there's some...someone who's been at the first conference.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Was very new into this. And I love to, like, bring them into, like, a group of people who maybe, like, are already a bit further along in their career and, like, these small relationships, like, these small things, either the most valuable.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Events like this.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. That's awesome. And I think it's a good segue too, into, like, some of the stuff that you've been doing recently. So. Yeah. Why don't you tell folks, like, some, because you, you've made some big changes in your life. Yeah.

LIAN: So, yeah, I've been in tech for most of my professional life, like 15 plus years, and seen a lot. But it is...it can be a grind. It can be very demanding, especially in DevRel. Lots of travel, lots of...it's like people you have to be on all the time. Also at conferences like this, people will approach you because they want to talk about your product, whatever, and you just have to always be approachable, friendly, you know, like, always be there and. Yeah, end of last year, November, I was just, like, really close to burnout, which is something we're going to talk about later.

ADRIANA: We are.

LIAN: And I just decided to take a break.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So I quit my job, and, and at the same time, I was doing, like, as a hobby, like amateur stage performance stuff. So I was doing improv theater in the ensemble of a musical group, and that was a lot of fun. And I just kind of, like, decided to just do that for a while.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: The entire time I was thinking this is like a vacation. Yeah, eventually I have to go back to tech.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: But, you know, at some point, I was like, I don't actually have to do anything. You know, I can just do whatever I want to do.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And, you know, as long as it's fun and enjoy it and, you know, like, I can still pay my mortgage and everything, it's gonna be fine. So I have been basically doing only stage performance since November, which is now, I don't know when it's gonna come out, but, like, about half a year almost. And I really enjoy it. I still keep with the tech industry a little bit.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Like, I go to conferences. Yeah, I'm with the technical advisory group of the CNCF on app delivery. So I'm doing some community stuff because I really enjoy community stuff, but I am very happy to not have to always chase the next thing, which is, like, a big part of, I think, what we do in startups as vendors in the Cloud Native space, DevRel specifically. So, yeah, it's taking a bit of a break, but also, like, reorientating myself in the world.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That's so awesome. And so, like, I'm curious for, you know, you've been part of, like, ensemble cast, so is it like a musical ensemble? So, like, did you already have, like, a background in singing? I mean, you. You do like, Kuberoke, right? That...that's like one of your...that's one of your...

LIAN: That's my claim to fame.

ADRIANA: Your claim to fame.

LIAN: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I did...I always loved...okay, I always wanted to be, like, an actor.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Even as a child. But my parents were not very pro because they're, like, they're Chinese parents, so they're very much, like, you should learn something proper and, like, have a proper job. But I always was very musical. I play, like, multiple musical instruments. I was, like, singing in, like, church choirs, and then the whole karaoke thing started, and, I mean, I'm not a strong dancer, but I do okay. So this is, like, an amateur group. So they were doing, like, boot camps, musical theater bootcamps. You can just try it.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then they were running open auditions, and to my surprise, honestly, no one was as surprised as I was. I got into the ensemble.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool.

LIAN: And, I mean, I wasn't...we were all singing, but we weren't all mic'd, so I didn't have a mic, and it was just basically dancing. And one of the things that I really found very interesting is that in that theater world, and I can't speak if that's the same everywhere, but, like, in this particular group, the...it's...it might not seem super diverse in that sense, because it's all about being at the right place at the right time. So obviously going to the auditions, and already people may not like you for whatever reason, like, you remind them of your...of their ex-wife or something that can happen, and it's totally reasonable for them to then say, I don't know...I don't like the vibe or whatever that happens. And I've just gotten really lucky that I was in the right place at the right time. So now, basically, in the ensemble group, I got a featured dancing spot.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: My dance is not that great, but they didn't have enough men, so I was basically playing a guy.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And now I'm doing another musical, which is Monty Python Spamalot.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool!

LIAN: I love it. So fun. And this similar thing, like, the...because I was there and, like, standing in for Lancelot because he missed some rehearsals.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: They basically asked me, like, if I wanted to understudy for Lancelot.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool.

LIAN: So now I'm getting, like, one show where I can play Lancelot, and I'm freaking out over it, of course, because it's gonna be, like, a proper kind of leading.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Role. But on the other hand, I was really freaking out, like, feeling all the imposter syndrome stuff, you know, like, because I'm not trained in any way. And a lot of the people, even though it's amateur, they're very good. They have a lot of experience, and they're like, trained. But then I realized, you know, when new speakers come up to me because I also do speaking workshops, I always tell them, you know, if the program committee wants you, there's no reason for you to doubt yourself.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Because they're making the decision. They look at your talk, they maybe look at your speaking experience, and they will say, we think this is great. Why don't you do it?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And I was, like, just basically telling me the same thing. Like, if the director thinks that I can do it, I can probably do it.

ADRIANA: Right. Right.

LIAN: You just, like, need to show up and do the work and eventually hope you will...it's always a mix between luck and hard work.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. And it's so many parallels with tech, right? Ridiculous.

LIAN: 100% - it's so...there are some things that are very similar, like, you know, the speaking and also the trying to convey something to me. Like, it's always been public speaking has always been stage performance to me.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Because you're really trying to entertain people. It's not just about giving information, but, like, giving information in a way that really engages.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Like, makes people feel things.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah.

LIAN: So that. I definitely see that in there. And what I also learned, which was very cool, when you're doing rehearsals, it's not about knowing every single line by heart, always, but it's more like, the director will give you, like, specific directions. Like, I want you to, like, be that kind of character. I want you to, like, convey that kind of feeling.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then, because on opening night, or, like, all the performances that you have, you will never have a perfect...everyone remembers all of their lines. Everyone stands in exactly the right way, and, like, the lighting is perfect. That will never happen. So instead, we are trying to, like, give everyone enough information that they can be autonomous.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And make the right decision at the right time, knowing what is it that the director wants from me.

ADRIANA: Right.

LIAN: And I was thinking about. Actually, I'm thinking about, like, a talk about this, where if we did this for very critical situations, let's say, like, feature releases or deployments, you know, instead of just, like, having this process and no one's allowed to move, like, deviate from it.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Give everyone the knowledge and the autonomy and the power to do the best thing that they can in their role and just, like, trust that you will bring it together, because in the end, a show is only as good as its weakest cast member.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Everyone needs to help each other out and make sure that if I see something's missing, right of me, I'm not waiting for the person to step up. I can do it. I'll just step up and bring it together. I really love that.

ADRIANA: That's awesome.

LIAN: That was a long story.

ADRIANA: That's so cool, though. And I guess also as part of that, because no two shows are the same. Like, there's some, I guess, sometimes improvisation that needs to take place because of the unexpected things.

LIAN: Exactly. And sometimes that is the best part of the show. So, like, in Cinderella, which is, you know, you would think that Cinderella is, like, a pretty boring, kind of, like, Disney princess kind of show, but it's actually, like, the musical is actually very funny, and there's a lot of space, especially for the characters, to improvise a little bit and to really get into who their character is.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: You know, like, Cinderella has two step sisters. One is kind of, like, not very smart.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: But ditzy. And the other one is a bit more. She, like, she has a character arc. She becomes a bit more of a friend person.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then they were different every single show. Like, they, like, there were small scenes where they were supposed to react and they reacted differently every single time. And over time, we would also. Because we had six shows in four days.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So by the third show, we would...we would know, like, this works very well with the audience, so let's, like, build on top of that a little bit. Every ensemble member also got, like, a little bit of a tiny backstory.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: We had this, like, huge marketplace scene, and there was this, like, situation where one guy had, like, four girlfriends and they were finding out about each other.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So even though they were, like, background characters.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: They had their own thing going, which made it seem much more, like, alive. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: Multidimensional. And I think that's kind of, like, what I'm feeling with tech also is, like, just because you're not always in doing the most important things or always in the foreground making the big decisions doesn't mean that there's nothing that you can fulfill, you know, in your own little corner. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, so great!

LIAN: It's so fun! Honestly, if you can do any kind of, like, stage performance stuff, I highly recommend it because it's so much fun to just go out there. Yeah.

ADRIANA: And get out of your own...kind of...head.

LIAN: Right. Different person. That's a lot of fun because also that will tell you, like, you get to try things and maybe you will also see, oh, I actually enjoy being a bit more extroverted in these circumstances.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And you meet a lot of fun people.

ADRIANA: That's true. That's true. Well, you know, I have to say, like, so earlier today, I attended your workshop at KubeHuddle on owning the stage.

LIAN: Yes.

ADRIANA: And it was like, a series of, like, improv exercises, which were so fun because, so my daughter Hannah had taken when she was younger, she took a bunch of, like, improv classes, and so I was familiar with some of the exercises because I'd see her showcases.

LIAN: Nice.

ADRIANA: And I'm like, oh, my God, how cool is it to, like, be on the other side of it, not being a spectator, but a participant.

LIAN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And it was just so much fun to just, like, do goofy things and, like, you created such a safe space for everyone, and it, like, I. You know, if you ever take your workshop on the road, like, I hope you do, because it was...it was great.

LIAN: Thank you. I will give the same workshop in DevOps Days Amsterdam.

ADRIANA: Oh, nice.

LIAN: And KCD Munich, I think. I mean, it's very different from a tech conference normally, so I'm really glad that, you know, the people who came were very into it because it was a bit like, you know, we were moving and dancing and. Yeah, that's not very comfortable for a lot of...even when we were, like, in the ensemble, in the musical theater cast of people who want to do musical theater, even then, sometimes it's awkward.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: You're not, like, that comfortable with each other yet. Like, it's always the thing about vulnerability and. Am I comfortable showing that side of me? Yeah, because this is a...when we're on stage, and this is something that I'm struggling with a lot when we're on stage, as a public speaker, you're supposed to be serious.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: You're supposed to be trustworthy and, like, professional.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: And that is true to some extent, but I think that it doesn't hurt to be a bit goofy and, you know, like, letting loose. I think that works again with the creating this, like, as you say, like, a safe space or just, like. Like, make people feel at ease. Like, let's not take this too serious. Yeah, yeah, I think that's. You're setting the tone when you're on stage, right? Everyone's looking to you, so...Yeah, I think it really. It really just helps to do that. And, like, not taking tech that seriously as a whole is also something that I learned. It's like, you know, like, it's...it's...it's good if you like what you do and you're taking, like, what you do seriously, but in the end, there's much more to life than tech.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think bringing a bit of levity into tech because, like, I like, as somebody with ADHD who gets bored, like, so easily, like, I have a hard time sitting through a talk.

LIAN: Right.

ADRIANA: So, like, the fact that your workshop had us up and about and doing things, like, those 45 minutes went by so fast. And, like, for me, as a speaker, when I give a talk, I want to bring, like, my energy and, like, funness to the talk. Like, I've done...I did one where, like, my co-speaker and I did a skit as part of our talk and then another one where we recorded a video, like, in Office Space style, just to break it up a bit. So it's kind of nice to see, like, you know...

LIAN: Yeah.

ADRIANA: You're doing something similar, like, bringing that funness and breaking the monotony out of tech is, like, tech is fun.

LIAN: It is.

ADRIANA: Why shouldn't we make our talks fun?

LIAN: I know. Why are we trying. This is so weird to me sometimes. Like, why are we trying to make it less fun, more boring, more, like, harder?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: I think there's, like, this gatekeeping maybe also going on where we're trying to make it seem harder than it actually is.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Programming, I think. Not saying it's easy, but it's not difficult. It's not, like, complicated, actually. Like, you can learn it. And I know a lot of people learned that, you know, in a bootcamp in a couple of weeks, and it's just like, maybe by using less, like, complicated words, like, technical terms, make it more approachable. And, like, also for my workshop, I really want...because there's this whole other thing about diversity, which, you know, you had a panel about this as well, where, let's say, women, that's my experience, are not encouraged to speak up, especially your experience as a woman or as a person of color. You're asked often to hide it because no one wants to hear it. People are tired of it. They don't want to listen to it. So there's a big part of you that you always feel like you can't really show because it's something that people don't want to, you know, don't want to talk about.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: I want also for people to just feel comfortable to take that space again.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And to be that weird version of themselves.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Very unique to everyone. Like, it doesn't matter if you're, like, diverse in that sense. Like, diversity, to me, is more about, like, what is something that you bring to the table that hasn't existed there before. And in theater, diversity looks very different because, like, for example, in the English speaking theater scene in Amsterdam, there's a lot of people who you see everywhere, which is very similar to tech also. Tech conferences. Yeah, you see the same people everywhere. It gets a bit monotonous after a while.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: But it's also for the same reasons. Like, the producers of those musicals, they're like, we know this person. You work very well with that person.

ADRIANA: Right.

LIAN: We know they're very talented and hardworking, so we're just gonna, you know, not even cast. We're just gonna put them into their role again.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LIAN: And they are much more women in musical theater, and there's much more, like, queer people in musical theater, but that doesn't mean it's diverse, because now you have...even though they tick the boxes, they have the platform. They're there all the time. There's a lot of other very talented people who we don't know yet who don't get the same chances because, you know, those spots already filled. So that is a huge parallel that I see to tech, and unfortunately, very surprising to me, it seems that they're not as aware of it as we are in tech.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so interesting.

LIAN: Right. I thought it was very surprising to me as well. Yeah, there's a lot of, like, there's actually some sexism and racism and, you know, homophobia, transphobia in musical theater, which is, like, really surprising.

ADRIANA: That's so surprising. Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: But, you know, like, it's. That maybe is also just a misconception.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

LIAN: Every artist is, like, super progressive.

ADRIANA: Right, right. Wow. Damn, that's pretty wild.

LIAN: But I do have the experience coming from tech now, so.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now you bring a fresh perspective, which is cool. And, you know, just going back to what you were saying about, like, you know, casting directors choosing people that they're familiar with, or even, like, conference. You know, when you're. When you're on a program committee for selecting speakers for a conference, that, you know, like, you have this bias of, like, oh, my God, I know this person. And they're, like, super cool.

LIAN: Exactly.

ADRIANA: And so, like. And I've found myself on program committees the last, you know, in the last several months, and so I'm trying, like, really hard to, like, make sure that I, you know, put those biases aside, because it can be so easy to fall into those habits and give, like, new speakers a chance. Like, one of the cool things about KubeHuddle is, like, we've got so many students attending, and one of the student speakers, like...what...one of the students was a speaker. Which is very cool. And I think they gave a talk about, like, navigating, like, you know, these big, like, tech events and whatnot, which is so cool. Like, giving, like, these new voices so that they can. They can come up in the industry and have, like, a platform.

LIAN: Yeah, exactly. So, like, exactly. Those, like, new perspectives that you couldn't get from, you know, like, a famous speaker who's gone...been around for a long time. Yeah, yeah. And I'm also...I also organize conferences myself, and I know that you always have to find a balance between, like, you need some big names to pull in, sponsorships to pull in attendees.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: And then you, you know, you want to have, like, maybe an open call for paper so people can just, like, send in, and then maybe you reserve, like, five spots for entirely new speakers you've never spoken before, people who would never get a chance to speak. And then, you know, there's always the risk that it's not a great talk. But you know what? A lot of talks aren't great. You don't know before. Yeah, but I think, again, like, if you think about it, if you make conscious decisions about this beforehand, it just makes a lot of things easier, because then you don't have to scramble after the fact when you're like, oh, shit, we have 40 speakers, and, like, none of them are women.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, exactly.

LIAN: It always happens. And again, there's never going to be the perfect anything. Like, you're never going to have the perfect lineup. So, you know, sometimes you have the same topic, and there's three speakers. One of them is a white guy. One of them is, like, a non binary person who's very famous, and another person, another third person is maybe a first time speaker.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: So maybe you will make, like, a biased decision for whatever reason, and I think that's fine, as long as you're aware this was a biased decision. And maybe I want to, you know, like, mitigate that somewhere else.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's also fine. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think at the end of the day, like, just having a space, too, where you can, like, give...give someone a chance. You know, you and I have been doing the speaking circuit for a while. We had to start somewhere, right? Someone had to give us a chance.

LIAN: Exactly. And I was very lucky because my first talk was at a...at an unconference, which is something that you're also having here, which is great, because, like, I would have not dared to go up on stage. I would have never thought that anyone wanted to listen to me, but because at an unconference, you hand in your proposal and the audience votes on it, I was like, oh, my God.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: Then from there, it was recorded, and the organizers from JSConf Asia saw the talk, and they invited me over to Singapore. And then I didn't realized this is, like, a proper career that you could do.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

LIAN: I was extremely lucky that I got that chance. And I feel like now I almost feel that the need, responsibility to give that. That feeling, because I was an okay engineer. It was fine. But I think once I got into public speaking, that's when I really felt like, this is my space, this is what I'm supposed to do here, that life changing experience for me. So I hope that other people will feel the same way about the public speaking or something. Something else that they love.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so amazing. Well, thank you. We're coming up on time, but before we finish up, do you have any words of advice that you want to impart on our audience members or hot takes? Either or works.

LIAN: I mean, like, I guess what I've been saying is just, like, do what you want to do. Don't feel weird about, you know, being weird. Um, it's...it's more fun. Life is more fun when you're weird.

ADRIANA: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Embrace the weird. I love it. Cool. Well, thank you, Lian, so much for geeking out with me today.

LIAN: Thanks for having me.

ADRIANA: Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad we're able to track you down, because normally, like, you're based out of Amsterdam and you're running about, and so I'm like, hey, you're gonna be a KubeHuddle.

LIAN: Yeah, I'm not in North America that much because it is kind of exhausting.

ADRIANA: It is a very exhausting trip. So I. Yeah, I totally don't blame you. Well, thank you again. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

LIAN: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

181. Mike-Paul-Bob-Andy with guest Nathan Lamont