80,000 Hours Podcast
#216 – Ian Dunt on why governments in Britain and elsewhere can't get anything done – and how to fix it
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Britain's political dysfunction is largely driven by bad incentives and processes rather than the capabilities of individual leaders.
- The emotional attachment to historical figures in governance hinders progress and modern innovation within the political system.
- Public understanding of parliamentary procedures is severely lacking, contributing to citizen disengagement and superficial political discourse.
- The prioritization of party loyalty among MPs undermines their ability to challenge government actions effectively and represent their constituents.
- Convoluted parliamentary rules create confusion and inefficiency, detracting from meaningful debates and the scrutiny of legislation.
- Delegated legislation's concentration of power bypasses essential checks and balances, jeopardizing democratic principles and accountability.
Deep dives
Britain's Political Constraints
Britain's political landscape is often constrained by its historical legacy, particularly the reverence for past leaders and institutions. This legacy can become a burden, as it hinders progress and innovation within the political system. The emotional attachment to figures who shaped liberal democracy can overshadow the need for modern governance. Rather than finding inspiration in those ghosts, the country must focus on creating a political environment that promotes emancipation and effective governance.
Focus on Artificial General Intelligence
The podcast emphasizes a shift in focus towards artificial general intelligence (AGI) and associated challenges. This direction aims to inform the public about rapid advancements in AI technology and the urgent decisions that governments may need to make. The drive to produce more content reflects the urgency to address potential consequences of AI on society and governance. By concentrating on AGI, the podcast seeks to explore its implications for the future and promote informed dialogue.
Lack of Public Understanding of Democracy
The podcast discusses the deficiency in public understanding of democratic processes in the UK, underscoring the need for better education about how legislation is passed. Many citizens struggle to explain basic parliamentary procedures, which contributes to a disengaged electorate. The lack of awareness also hampers journalists' understanding, leading to superficial coverage of political events. This ignorance can result in frustration and distrust towards the political system, preventing meaningful citizen participation.
Systemic Issues Over Individual Blame
Frustration with government often leads the public to blame individual leaders for failures, yet the podcast argues that this focus is misplaced. It suggests that systemic issues and incentives within the political structure have a more significant impact on governance than the abilities of particular individuals. Recognizing this distinction can help shift the conversation toward addressing underlying problems that affect decision-making. A focus on systems rather than individuals promotes a more constructive critique of governance.
Influence of Party Loyalty
Party loyalty among MPs significantly impacts their ability to challenge the executive and participate meaningfully in governance. Many MPs prioritize loyalty to their party over their role as independent representatives of the electorate. This results in a culture where dissent is punished, and conformity is rewarded, stifling independent thought and action. The podcast highlights the need for MPs to break free from these constraints in order to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities.
Ineffective Parliamentary Procedures
The podcast identifies several issues with parliamentary procedures that undermine effective governance. Rules are often convoluted and difficult for MPs to navigate, leading to confusion and inefficiency. The desire to maintain control over proceedings often results in a lack of meaningful debate and scrutiny of legislation. Addressing these procedural flaws is crucial for creating a more functional legislative environment.
Delegated Legislation and Executive Power
Delegated legislation allows the executive branch to create laws with minimal parliamentary oversight, resulting in significant concentration of power. This process can bypass important checks and balances, facilitating the enactment of policies without proper scrutiny. The podcast discusses how this undermines democratic principles and can lead to unintended consequences. A reevaluation of delegated legislation is necessary to restore parliamentary authority and accountability.
Constituency Work vs. Legislative Role
Many MPs spend a substantial amount of their time addressing constituency issues rather than focusing on their legislative responsibilities. This diversion of attention prevents them from engaging with important national matters and detracts from their ability to shape policy effectively. The podcast suggests that creating independent bodies, like an ombudsman, could alleviate this burden and allow MPs to concentrate on their core legislative functions. By reducing the need for MPs to act as constituents' advocates, the overall quality of governance could improve.
Importance of Civil Service Expertise
The podcast emphasizes the need for a more competent and knowledgeable civil service to improve government functionality. Currently, civil servants often lack the deep expertise required for effective governance due to high turnover and a focus on short-term positions. By rewarding specialized skills and offering clear career paths, the government could cultivate a more capable civil service. This would enable better support for ministers and enhance the overall quality of legislation and public policy.
Building Stronger Social Norms
Encouraging stronger social norms within the political system can foster accountability and effective governance. The podcast argues that creating an environment where civil servants and MPs feel empowered to challenge the status quo can lead to better decision-making. Institutions must be designed to reward independent thinking and expertise, rather than blind allegiance to party lines. The focus should be on cultivating a culture of constructive criticism and collaboration.
The Role of Citizen Jurors
Citizen juries can be a valuable addition to the legislative process, allowing for more informed public participation in decision-making. They offer a platform for citizens to engage deeply with complex issues and gather insights from experts, ultimately shaping public policy. The podcast advocates for utilizing citizen juries in the early stages of legislation to refine proposed policies before they are published. This approach could enhance democratic legitimacy and accountability.
Electoral Reform and Representation
The podcast proposes a shift towards proportional representation to better reflect the diversity of opinions in the UK electorate. By allowing for a more representative system, parties would be compelled to collaborate and address the needs of various constituencies. This change could lead to greater accountability, more thoughtful governance, and a reduction in the adversarial nature of politics. Electoral reform is presented as a crucial step toward a more effective democracy.
When you have a system where ministers almost never understand their portfolios, civil servants change jobs every few months, and MPs don't grasp parliamentary procedure even after decades in office — is the problem the people, or the structure they work in?
Today's guest, political journalist Ian Dunt, studies the systemic reasons governments succeed and fail.
And in his book How Westminster Works ...and Why It Doesn't, he argues that Britain's government dysfunction and multi-decade failure to solve its key problems stems primarily from bad incentives and bad processes.
Even brilliant, well-intentioned people are set up to fail by a long list of institutional absurdities that Ian runs through — from the constant churn of ministers and civil servants that means no one understands what they’re working on, to the “pathological national sentimentality” that keeps 10 Downing Street (a 17th century townhouse) as the beating heart of British government.
While some of these are unique British failings, we see similar dynamics in other governments and large corporations around the world.
But Ian also lays out how some countries have found structural solutions that help ensure decisions are made by the right people, with the information they need, and that success is rewarded.
Links to learn more, video, highlights, and full transcript.
Chapters:
- Cold open (00:00:00)
- How Ian got obsessed with Britain's endless failings (00:01:05)
- Should we blame individuals or incentives? (00:03:24)
- The UK left its allies to be murdered in Afghanistan (to save cats and dogs) (00:09:02)
- The UK is governed from a tiny cramped house (00:17:54)
- “It's the stupidest conceivable system for how to run a country” (00:23:30)
- The problems that never get solved in the UK (00:28:14)
- Why UK ministers have no expertise in the areas they govern (00:31:32)
- Why MPs are chosen to have no idea about legislation (00:44:08)
- Is any country doing things better? (00:46:14)
- Is rushing inevitable or artificial? (00:57:20)
- How unelected septuagenarians are the heroes of UK governance (01:01:02)
- How Thatcher unintentionally made one part of parliament work (01:10:48)
- Maybe secrecy is the best disinfectant for incompetence (01:14:17)
- The House of Commons may as well be in a coma (01:22:34)
- Why it's in the PM's interest to ban electronic voting (01:33:13)
- MPs are deliberately kept ignorant of parliamentary procedure (01:35:53)
- “Whole areas of law have fallen almost completely into the vortex” (01:40:37)
- What's the seed of all this going wrong? (01:44:00)
- Why won't the Commons challenge the executive when it can? (01:53:10)
- Better ways to choose MPs (01:58:33)
- Citizens’ juries (02:07:16)
- Do more independent-minded legislatures actually lead to better outcomes? (02:10:42)
- "There’s no time for this bourgeois constitutional reform bulls***" (02:16:50)
- How to keep expert civil servants (02:22:35)
- Improving legislation like you’d improve Netflix dramas (02:34:34)
- MPs waste much of their time helping constituents with random complaints (02:39:59)
- Party culture prevents independent thinking (02:43:52)
- Would a written constitution help or hurt? (02:48:37)
- Can we give the PM room to appoint ministers based on expertise and competence? (02:51:51)
- Would proportional representation help? (02:56:20)
- Proportional representation encourages collaboration but does have weaknesses (02:58:51)
- Alternative electoral systems (03:07:44)
This episode was originally recorded on January 30, 2025.
Video editing: Simon Monsour
Audio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Music: Ben Cordell
Camera operator: Jeremy Chevillotte
Transcriptions and web: Katy Moore
Remember Everything You Learn from Podcasts
