KOL216 | Morehouse Interview: Why Intellectual Property Sucks

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 216. I was a guest recently on Isaac Morehouse's podcast, "Why Intellectual Property Sucks, with Stephan Kinsella" (Oct. 10, 2016), discussing intellectual property and related issues. Isaac's description below, along with the transcript. Is intellectual property law the foundation of an innovative society? Or a racket set up to protect entrenched businesses from competition? Stephan Kinsella joins the show this week to break down intellectual property law. Stephan is a practicing patent attorney, a libertarian writer and speaker, Director of the Center for the Study of Innovative Freedom (C4SIF), and Founding and Executive Editor of Libertarian Papers. He is one of the clearest and most compelling thinkers on intellectual property law. We cover the historical context of IP law, the modern day consequences of copyright and patent monopolies, the flaws in common arguments for intellectual property laws, and more. Covered in this episode: How did Stephan become interested in intellectual property? His intellectual evolution on the topic of intellectual property What are copyright, patent, trademarks, and trade secrets? Where did the concept of intellectual property come from? Which IP laws are the most harmful? Fraud vs. Trademarks Libertarian perspectives on IP John Locke’s  errors on property that affect us today Why Innovation is stronger without IP (fashion, food, football) Problems with trade secret law Copyright law that existed under common law Why IP is wrong from a deontological and consequentialist point of view How would J.K. Rowling make a living without IP? How to be principled about IP as an entrepreneur while not harming your company Links: www.stephankinsella.com How I Changed My Mind on Intellectual Property by Isaac Morehouse Against Intellectual Property by Stephan Kinsella (free) Do business without IP by Stephan Kinsella Episode 14: Harris Kenny on 3D Printing and a World Without Intellectual Property C4SIF.org (Center for the Study of Innovative Freedom) Ayn Rand on IP Against Intellectual Monopoly by Michele Boldrin and David Levine (Free version) The Case Against Patents by Michele Boldrin and David Levine If you are a fan of the show, make sure to leave a review on iTunes. All episodes of the Isaac Morehouse Podcast are available on SoundCloud, iTunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. Transcript (auto-generated by youtube): 0:02 [Music] 0:17 this is Isaac Morehouse welcome to the podcast where we discuss education 0:22 entrepreneurship big ideas how to put them into practice in the real world and above all how to live free how to go 0:33 from zero to a startup job in nine months you don't need to jump through 0:39 hoops or blast out resumes you can start today praxis combines a 3-month professional 0:46 bootcamp with a six month paid apprenticeship at a startup that leads directly to a 0:52 full-time job startups aren't just for coders sales marketing operations even if you're not 1:00 sure what you're interested in praxis places you with a dynamic growing company where you do work you love 1:06 become part of a team and make a difference praxis is tailored to your goals and your interests coaching 1:13 sessions group discussions with your peers skills training and a portfolio of projects along with the imprensa ship 1:20 create a powerful combination of real world experience and intensive learning 1:26 we are relentlessly committed to helping you discover and do what makes you come 1:33 alive we don't just prepare you for a job we actually give you one no degree 1:39 is required to get started on your career whether you're an ambitious go-getter right out of high school a 1:45 creative thinker who's bored in college or a college grad looking for the next 1:50 step discover praxis great jobs are waiting are you ready 1:58 [Music] 2:10 today I am very excited to have on the show stephan kinsella this is actually Guest introduction 2:15 when I first launched the podcast when I made my first list of potential guests I wanted to have Stefan was on that very 2:21 first list that it's taken over a year for whatever reason to just get him on 2:27 the show and do an episode about intellectual property so Stefan welcome 2:32 to the podcast thanks a lot glad to be here so briefly introducing you and I know your bio is 2:37 much more deep in why'd Stefan is a patent lawyer interestingly enough has 2:44 been for almost 25 years now he also has a podcast he is a scholar has written 2:49 many both sort of popular and scholarly articles on everything from intellectual 2:55 property which is our subject today to you know all kinds of legal theory the 3:01 philosophy of Liberty many many more he's he's kind of the foremost expert on intellectual property certainly from a 3:09 free-market standpoint he's the founder and director of the Center for hold on 3:15 I'm gonna get the name wrong let me make sure I get it right the the Center for the study of innovative freedom which is 3:23 really focused on the intellectual property topic so Stefan what did I miss 3:28 in your bio that's important you got it right I am a quick summary of my path 3:37 was an 82 I became a libertarian through reading Rand in high school and around 88 in law school I became an anarchist 3:44 after reading Rothbard and the others and around 1992 or so 1993 I started 3:50 practicing patent law and that's right when I became anti IP at the same time so right when I learned enough about IP 3:57 law to start practicing it I also learned enough to realize that it was completely incompatible with libertarian 4:02 property rights yeah so let's let's jump right in there because as that was one of the first things I want to ask you How did you get into IP 4:08 how did you get into you know the issue they're interested in the issue of the 4:14 intellectual property and and how have you sort of maintained a career a patent attorney well you've had this 4:22 philosophical position in opposition to IP so how did it start yeah well you're just reading reading 4:28 the basics of libertarian theory like when I was younger in college and even earlier Iran's defense of intellectual 4:33 property you know they never quite made sense to me like the other stuff did because she's like in favor of this 4:40 patent system which gives you a monopoly over in addition but for 17 years and 4:45 copyright gives you a monopoly over an idea but for you know 60 or 70 years but it's it's like an arbitrary time frame 4:53 and that doesn't see didn't seem like to me I said there's something wrong with this because natural rights lasts forever if they're justified so I I just 5:00 put it on the back burner and I figured I figured they knew more than I did about it and I kept thinking about it 5:07 and when I went to law school I thought more when I started practicing in a different field in an international law 5:13 and oil and gas or energy law but I finally switched over to patents because the the tech field was really good at 5:20 the time in law the patent law field so I switched over and at that time I just 5:26 started thinking more and more about it and I started doing a lot more reading I read works by Wendy McIlroy who I really 5:32 think is basically the pioneer in libertarian theory in intellectual property I really think she's the first 5:38 one who basically got it right she didn't flesh it out completely but she 5:45 she was there with Sam Konkan and Benjamin Tucker before her who she'd 5:51 studied but Benjamin Tucker's reasoning was not exactly right he was sort of 5:56 against monopoly for the same reason he was against monopolies and land so you can see that his reasoning wasn't quite 6:02 pure libertarian on this but Sam Konkan and Wendy Mack award really got it right 6:08 I think especially Wendy and and then Tom Palmer sort of writing some really good more advanced stuff in the 90s so I 6:16 read all that and some other people's works and I finally came to the conclusion oh the reason I'm having trouble justifying this because I 6:22 thought you know I know more about IP than most libertarians because I'm practicing it I can be the one who finally figured this out and explains 6:28 why it's why it is justified after all why yeah have a better explanation than ran did which by the way is what her chief sort 6:36 of a legal disciple right now Adam Moss off has been trying to do for a dozen years now or so he he keeps promising to 6:43 come up with some kind of defensive IP that is I guess better than rands but he just keeps repeating what she said as 6:49 far as I can tell and mixing it in with like utilitarian arguments like those of Richard Epstein so but I on the other 6:56 hand finally concluded that the reason I was having trouble finding a good argument for IP was because the same 7:02 reason I would have trouble finding an argument for slavery it's because it can't be justified so that was that was 7:08 my path and the the the basic reasoning I came to was not really utilitarian although I think empirical arguments or 7:16