Phil Johnson Debate over Sovereignty and Determinism

In this episode Stewie and Phil Johnson gang up on me and hurt my feelings. They are insisting my claim that God's sovereignty is more about his desire to reveal a world NOT under his complete control than it is about Him attempting to maintain deterministic control over every thing that happens is just plain 'stupid' and 'jejune.' What ever that means.

It once again goes back to the Determinist's claim that God cannot create a rock to big for Him to move, but does that in any way prove that God cannot create a rock that He chooses NOT to move?  Phil Johnson, like James White, seems to think even the consideration of such a idea is irrational.  Who cares if it doesn't seem rational to our finite mind, I just want to know if its biblical.

 

These passages teach that there are "authorities" and "powers" which are yet to be destroyed, and that have been given dominion over God's creation.

Isaiah 24:21 A time is coming when the Lord will punish the powers above and the rulers of the earth. Ephesians 6:12  For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Colossians 2:20  You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. 1 Corinthians 15:24 GNT Then the end will come; Christ will overcome all spiritual rulers, authorities, and powers, and will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father. Don't misunderstand my point. I affirm that God is OVER these powers and authorities. He created them after all. Colossians 1:16: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. And one day God will strip them of that authority: Colossians 2:15  God stripped the spiritual rulers and powers of their authority. With the cross, he won the victory and showed the world that they were powerless. But, if God has chosen to allow created beings to have dominion and power over something, even for a time, how is His "sovereignty" (as defined by some being "complete and total deterministic over every single thing") not compromised?

I appreciate Phil Johnson posting a link to his blog in our Twitter discussion. I think a fair summary is, "The difficulty of Human Responsibility and God's Sovereignty disappears when you accept that God ordains the means as well as the ends." Which to me seems tantamount to saying the difficulty goes away when you accept that God is responsible for both His own choices (the ends) and man's choices (the means).

i.e. God determines the ends but also every little detail that brought that end to pass....so how is that different than plan ol' HARD DETERMINISM? It's not.

Does Phil mean by "ordain" that God merely permits? If so, we agree...but isn't divine permission conceding the existence of human autonomy given that it there must be something outside God's will for which to give permission? Romans 5:12 says that death entered the world because of sin, right? Death...suffering...pain and all the bad things that happen came as a result of sin entering the universe (reference to Genesis 3:14-24) not as a result of God's decision, but decisions of his creatures.

Doesn't that mean all those evil consequences of sin continue to work in the world and will be with us as long as sin is here even if God weren't involved at all (which I'm not saying he isn't...I'm just saying this came about because of sin, not God, and it would continue with or without God's being involved...its independent of Him, separate, in other words). God is certainly more powerful than any evil...he could stifle it at any moment with a word. I don't think anyone is denying that. And I think we all agree that there's a sense in which it is proper even to say that "evil is part of His eternal decree," (permissively I mean).  

He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10), but isn't there a difference in working evil out for good and unchangeably determining evil yourself? It's one thing to help my child grow from being bullied, its another for me to hire the bully so as to make my child grow. See my point? Most say that God's role with regard to evil is never as its "author," but few define the distinction between predetermining/ ordaining/ decreeing and 'authoring.'  I posed this question to Phil via Twitter: "Tell me if I'm wrong here but it seems to me that God simply permits evil people to do their own evil, then God overrules or works out the evil for His own good END. Agree? Disagree?"

We will get into his answer and much more in the next episode.  To join the discussion visit us at www.soteriology101.com