Legal is Self-Care for Your Business with Nicole Cheri Oden

Episode 6

Legal matters impact our lives every day.

As business owners, how much attention should we give to legal matters?

Today, we welcome Nicole Cheri Oden. Nicole is an attorney licensed in the State of California for almost 10 years. After 4 1/2 years at a big firm, she became a mama. She knew that if she wanted to be present while her daughter grew up, she had to make some big changes. So she started her own law firm and spent the next 2 years learning how to actively create a work-life balance while teaching other women to do the same thing. After receiving countless questions from other online entrepreneurs who were just so overwhelmed with legalities, she pivoted in her coaching to offer legal templates to take the expense and overwhelm out of the process for them. Because while you don't have to devote all your time, energy, and money to addressing legal issues, as an entrepreneur you do have to become familiar with the law.

Nicole also works one-on-one with California based business owners for custom contracts and policies and US-based business for trademarks.

During this episode, we talk about:

• Legal responsibilities of solopreneur business owners (2:41)
• Legal is self-care for your business (5:00)
• Importance of contracts in your business (11:05)
• Data privacy (14:25)
• Trademarks (20:49)

Visit Nicole:

Template Shop: https://nicolecherioden.com/legal-shop/

Mini-Course: https://nicolecherioden.com/legal-basics/

Law Office: https://nicolecheriodenlaw.com/

You can also connect with Nicole on:

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nicolecheriodenlaw/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-cheri-oden/

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Collab with Kiva. Kiva creates business operating systems for owners who want to grow their revenue and impact without investing more time in their business.

>> Every good team has a playbook. Does yours? Ready to build out your business playbook to not only take things off of your plate but help your business scale? Book a call with Kiva => https://www.the516collaborative.com/schedule-call

Let's stay connected!

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Website: https://www.the516collaborative.com/

Kiva Slade 0:02

Hello and welcome to Collab with Kiva. I'm your host, Kiva, Slade. From the marbled halls of the US Congress to my racing-themed office chair. I've learned that there is no perfect path to the life of your dreams. Over the past 20 years, my journey has included being a legislative director for a member of Congress, policy director for a nonprofit, stay-at-home mom, homeschooling mom, jewelry biz owner, and now the owner of a service-based business. Whether your journey has been straight or follows zigs and zags, join my guest and me as we share insights, hopes, and lessons from our female entrepreneurship journeys. May the collaborative sharing of our stories be the tide that lifts your boat? Let's dive in. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Collab with Kiva. Today. I am so excited because I have a dear friend of mine with me, and we will talk about some juicy stuff in the field of legal. So today's guest is Nicole Sherry Odin, and she's an attorney licensed in California for the last ten years. After four and a half years at a big firm, she became a mama to the most adorable little girl; I will say, she knew that if she wanted to be present while her daughter grew up, she had made some significant changes. She started her law firm and spent the next two years learning to actively create a work-life balance while teaching other women to do the same thing. So after receiving countless questions from other online entrepreneurs, probably myself included, who are just so overwhelmed with legal, she pivoted into coaching to offer legal templates to take the expense and overwhelm out of the process for them. Now, I know we don't want to devote all of our time, energy, and money to addressing legal issues. But as an entrepreneur, it is essential that we are familiar with the legal requirements that come with being a business owner. And that's why I love talking with Nicole. So Nicole also works one on one with California-based business owners for custom contracts and policies. And she also deals with trademarks so which is a whole other conversation that we can have. So welcome to the show, Nicole.

Nicole Oden 2:18

I am so excited to be here. I'm so excited about your launch. I mean, this is amazing.

Kiva Slade 2:22

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So tell us a little bit more about when it comes to business owners and legal and especially for some people who are like, I'm a solopreneur. It's just me and my business. What kind of legal responsibilities do I have? Let's shed some light on that. Should we?

Nicole Oden 2:41

Yeah, I mean, I think it's amazing that the barrier to entry as a business owner is really low these days, because of the online space. I mean, it's so easy to go buy a domain from GoDaddy, put up a website, put up a WooCommerce store, or even go with like a Shopify or Kartra, store and have everything all included. And call yourself a business owner. That's wonderful. You're making money. But you're not thinking about kind of those basic legal foundations that you need in place to protect your business to protect your income, and really to protect your boundaries and long term if, especially if you're working with clients. But also in terms of if you're selling products. I mean, if you have somebody asking for a refund, what are those boundaries? Do you have a refund policy? There are just certain things that I find newer business owners aren't fully thinking through. And they're operating more on the kind of a wait and pray legal approach, which is I'm going to wait and nothing happens. And then when finally, you know, finally something does, then I'm going to deal with it, which is actually not a very smart strategy because it becomes so much more expensive to clean the mess up and then get protections in place after the fact than it would be if you had taken the time and made the investment early on to kind of just get the, you know the basics in place. Now, of course, as your business grows and expands, maybe you start hiring employees, your legal needs do shift. But you have to start, I'm of the firm opinion that you have to start from day one, making sure that there are just some basic things in place.

Kiva Slade 4:09

I absolutely love that. Because there are, you're like, what's the refund policy? I don't know. We make it up on the day. You know, it's what it feels like sometimes when you're the person who's the chief bottle washer, you're the CEO, you're the accountant and you're the bookkeeper. You're your own marketing team. It does really feel like oh, we'll just wait for something to break. In this case, the same thing with the legal and then we'll worry about it in that's just it's just so not prudent. But one of the things I've heard you say is that legal is self-care for your business. And I know we talk a lot about self-care in terms of our spas or massages or you know taking time for ourselves. But when we're thinking about our business and what were you say three things that somebody really needs to think about when it comes to starting a business and keeping themselves legally protected.

Nicole Oden 5:00

Okay, so there are two, two kinds of points I want to address. Okay, so the first being, yeah, I am a firm believer that legal is self-care for your business. And I like to phrase it that way, because I think so many creative service-based business owners come from a place of their hearts. And a lot of them will say legally is just, it's too much for them. You know, it's too, legally, it's too scary, and especially for their clients, it would be overwhelming. But if you flip that script, and really stand true to the fact that you're establishing boundaries, that's what's key. That's what legal is doing. Because legal be a written contract or policies for your website, it really is a two-way street. I mean, it's protecting you, and it's protecting your client and establishing those boundaries. So it's just something that you want to make sure that you, you're taking care of yourself, at the end of the day, and you're taking care of your business.

Kiva Slade 5:54

So taking care of yourself and your business. So let's talk about contracts. Yes. I know that you've seen just like I've seen in certain Facebook groups, other online communities, people are operating their businesses, without contracts in some cases. And sometimes these contracts are not written. There are verbal agreements that might be taking place, and then there are sometimes hurt feelings because one side or both sides are not having their expectations met. Yeah. Why are contracts important in business?

Nicole Oden 6:31

Yeah. so you know, it's important to understand that contracts can be both oral and, and written, and both can be enforceable. But I am a firm proponent, that every single relationship in your business needs a written contract. When you have an oral agreement, it really does come down to He Said, She Said, and you're trying to piece together, you know, Facebook message conversations and email exchanges, telephone call recollections, you know, looking at receipts that were paid, and it just becomes a mess, in terms of trying to piece together what the true expectations were, and trying to show there was a meeting of the minds versus when you have a written contract that you can reference back to see, you know, what were the terms? What was the timeline? What were my expectations? In terms of if I wanted to get out of the contract? Could I? If we do have a dispute, what's the process that we're handling the dispute through? Are we going to court? Are we you know, potentially going to arbitration? And if that doesn't fail, you know, does it become binding? You know, it's there's so many kinds of, what-if scenarios that may not be fun to piece together at the beginning, but are so necessary? So I'm just a firm proponent that that written contract is key.

Kiva Slade 8:00

Definitely, because I, for example, sometimes have a subcontractor, you know, or an independent contractor, I have a contract with them. Okay, I also have contracts with my clients. Um, let's see here contracts with vendors, for example, I know one of the areas that I've kind of talked to you about was brand photography because I was looking to do some updated pictures and things of that sort, and really felt that some of the contracts felt more personal than they did, covering me as an entity or as a corporation and business. And I'm worth looking at that, you know, is it wise may be feasible? Not even sure which word I want to use there for us to have an ongoing relationship with someone who is an attorney? What would you recommend for business owners that have maybe multiple contracts, or contracts scenarios in place?

Nicole Oden 9:00

So I always recommend that business owners meet with an attorney early on in their business to really just sit down and have a strategy session. Here's my business, here's where I anticipate it going, you know, what are the types of contracts I might need? What other types of legal protections should I explore? Maybe that's transitioning from an LLC to a corporation because now we have grown on employees and we need different tax structures. You know, maybe I do need to explore copyright registration so that I can enter into a licensing agreement or obtain a, you know, trademark registration. Because you know, my brand's blowing up in the online space and I want to be able to send a letter to an infringer that has teeth in it. So there are so many kinds of moving pieces, especially in the online business world that are nuanced, even just from small business law. Having that kind of clear outline early on is helpful. And then I always recommend actually do a check-in annually with your contracts and with your relationships because relationships do change. agreements change. And you want to make sure that what you have in writing really mirrors, you know, everybody's expectations. And just having that continual relationship is something that a lot of attorneys offer. You know, I offer legal strategy sessions, I know that there are other attorneys who practice law in the online business space who do the same. And I think just having kind of that ability to send an email to an attorney and ask a quick question too, you know, is this something that I need to sit down and talk with you about? Or is this something that we can revisit down the line? It's so beneficial.

Kiva Slade 10:34

I love that. Thanks so much. Now, here's a question I think that some people might have. Some of us have working relationships, where we might be based in the US and those that we interact with are based elsewhere. So even if we have a contract, what happens if something were to happen? Just what should we think about? Is there a level of, hey, we have this contract, but I'm not really pursuing this? Or what are our options?

Nicole Oden 11:05

Yeah. So I think this reverts back to the conversation about why having a written contract is so key. Because so if you don't have a contract, and let's say something goes wrong, there's a wrongdoer. And let's, let's say it's the person that you're working with. And they live in a different country from the United States. Guess where you're having to chase them down to file suit, it's not in the United States, it's where you know that that wrongdoing happens. So then you're having to pursue local counsel, they're potentially working with local counsel here in the US to get, you know, conversations going and kind of looking at what happened to piece together, you know, which contract law prevails, versus if you had the written contract from the beginning and hand-laid out in your dispute resolution provision, that if we have a disagreement, the state of you know, let's say, for example, California's laws are going to be what we pursue, and we're going to actually have arbitration in the state of California, in the county of Los Angeles, and this is how it's going to go. And you can be as detailed as you want to be in that dispute resolution provision to make sure it's something that you're not having to haul your cookies across.

Kiva Slade 12:16

Yeah, cuz no one wants to do that. Right. But I think there is a level of, you know, what the wrongdoer, whoever it was, did XY and Z, it Do you find that there's a high level of people who are like, You know what, even with a contract, you know, I'm just not even going to pursue it, I'll just eat the loss and keep moving forward.

Nicole Oden 12:37

Yeah, and I think that there is some cost-benefit analysis that comes into your consideration as a business owner. And this is where I like to refocus kind of the conversation with clients. Because at the end of the day, you can have all the legal protections in place, it's what you choose to do with them. You know, and that can even be something so much as you have a no refund policy. In your contracts, you have somebody who asked for a refund, and you just decide, based on maybe what they're communicating with you that you're going to give them the refund for just that kind of good faith continued relationship after for some reason, and you decide to go against the provision, and you have the ability to do that. But you don't have to. And so it's just something to keep in mind. It's that cost-benefit, you really have to look at the whole picture, it doesn't make sense to file a lawsuit and go after somebody for like $1,000 Probably not because of the headache and the stress that comes along with filing in small claims court and trying to get everything together and whether you're going to do it yourself or find an attorney and it's probably not worth it. Alright, but you know, if you have somebody who's breached, maybe a year-long contract, and they owe you $50,000, you know, the cost-benefit analysis might weigh in going forward with a lawsuit, it really is just a situational decision.

Kiva Slade 13:55

Right. I love that though that. So now let's talk about something that I'll just say, I think I've been negligent in this area. I'll just come clean before I even ask the question. So for those of us with websites, what's the stuff about privacy policies and being illegal, and how much warning do they really need? Is that Squarespace-like template acceptable? Fill us in Nicole.

Nicole Oden 14:25

Okay, so data privacy legislation has been kind of on the uptick the last 10 years, people were getting savvy to the very smarmy online marketing tactics that people were using in terms of gathering a lot of what we call personally identifiable information or personal information about people on their websites and about people that they were interacting on their email list with and, you know, cold calling, cold subscribing people to their lists. And so back in 2004, California actually became the first state to issue legislation that required businesses who do business online with California residents to have a privacy policy on their website, and it couldn't be something that was just hidden, that couldn't be found, it really has to be something that's accessible and noticeable and clearly lays out the information that's being collected. And what you're doing with it that really at the end of the day, is what a privacy policy is. Flash forward to 2018. and the European Union took it a step further, and issued the general data protection regulation, which has very far-reaching implications, not only just for European Union, the EU, but really globally because we have become a global economy. And so GDPR actually requires you to have a privacy policy. Again, if you deal with people in the EU, or E residents, which, you know, an EU resident could be in the US, they could be in Canada. And so, hence the broadening of the scope of this legislation. And it gave a lot of power back to the consumers in terms of, you know, can they ask for you to delete their information? Can they ask for you to correct it? Can they ask for you to port it to another third party on their behalf? So there's a lot of kind of expectations that are laid out in that legislation, and people get very scared about it. But if you just kind of come back to that concept of the privacy policy tells people what information you're collecting, and what you're doing with it, that that kind of refocuses. There is a lot of legal languages that needs to be in a privacy policy. And so that kind of generic outlines on-website providers, the WooCommerce, or kartra, or Shopify or Squarespace, or whatever it is that you're using is an outline. But it doesn't contain all of the information. Because if you take that a step further, we've now had further legislation come out in California, that, you know, basically mirrors GDPR, but in different ways. You know, cookies are a big thing in the online space. And so I'm sure we've all seen those lovely cookie bars that pop up visit websites, because now you have to make sure that you're receiving an affirmative consent to process personal information, basically, meaning somebody has to click a button that says, Yes, I agree, you can collect law. And personal information can be pretty expensive. It's you know, names, email addresses. It's the IP address that your Google Analytics collects. So pretty much if you have a website, you're collecting personal information, and you can't run and hide from this legislation, not scare people, but

Kiva Slade 17:45

hey, but like, we have to put the facts out there as they are, you know, because there are we all are familiar with the cookies that pop up and say like, Hey, are you okay with this, or view how we're using which cookies and you can deselect or select those things that you do want to include, don't want to include? So I think that this is so valuable, and especially since it feels like in the online space, it's like you said earlier, like, Oops, I've decided on my name, I have a website, you know, and I am now collecting money, or I'm engaging in commerce activities, look somebody over a service or a product. And it's like, yeah, that privacy policy is probably something really Spock like, Hey, there's this and you're like, and in some cases, we probably haven't even read it, if it's just like the kind of comes with the website, kind of package, so to speak.

Nicole Oden 18:39

And it's funny that you say that, because I can't even tell you the number of times that I've kind of reviewed clients privacy policies, and they'll have something up and it literally has like the brackets, it says, insert your company name here, insert what you do with this information here. And I'm like, oh, let's go back to the drawing board.

Kiva Slade 18:59

Absolutely. And I love though, that it's, it's something that we have to pay attention to, you know, because there literally are laws and the laws of broadening and increasing and because as consumers when we put ourselves in that other hat, but we wear as you know, that consumer going to a site, we actually do want some level of protection and privacy with our information. And I've been known to hit the No, I don't consent, but and I still want to look at certain things on your website. So it's one of those things that stepping outside of my business owner role that if I do you know my consumer role, yeah, actually, that's important to me. And I think it's like making sure that when we're in our business owner role that we're thinking of those who do come in wanting to engage with us, what is the best thing for them and like you said, you know, that self-care it's like what's protects us but also protects that particular or potential customer in this case? So I love that you share that there and I still need to possibly go look at my privacy policy. So that's a takeaway for everybody. So, um, I do want to touch on though businesses and trademarks because I feel like there's maybe it's me, but maybe there are some misconceptions about what can be trademarked or what can't be trademarked. And what exactly is a trademark? And how does it help someone? Because I've heard different things. Oh, you trademark after you're in business, people like that you can trademark something before you even use it like, and let's not get into the fact that sometimes we put little teams after things that we possibly just haven't even trademarked. It's like the ADT sign that's outside the house that doesn't have an alarm. So I'm just wondering, what's your take on those?

Nicole Oden 20:49

So many things to unpack. I think okay, so let's start from the beginning about what a trademark is. So a trademark really is a name, a word, a symbol, a graphic, something that ties to the source of products or services in commerce. So if you think to your business name, your podcast name, you know, the tagline for your business, the actual logo for your business, those things are trademarks. And from the time that you start using them, they're a trademark, and the registration process is basically additional protection for your business. That gives you the statutory right meaning the actual, legal, right, by legislation to actually pursue somebody for attorneys fees and damages if they infringe on your protected trademark rights. And so I, you know, I'm a big proponent of actually doing a trademark search before you even launch and in whether or not you decide to pursue an intent to use trademark application. And I'll talk about the difference between that and an end-use application in seconds or not, you really want to do your due diligence to make sure you are not infringing on somebody's trademark rights. Because then you're opening yourself up to a potential cease and desist letter and inexpensive rebrand. And nobody wants to spend the money, putting together their websites, and all their social media branding, and being out there doing their PR circuit, and then all of a sudden, they find out that that business name is not going to fly because it actually is already in use. So I think that that is a very smart investment. And that can be with even you know, digital products, your course name. You know, if you have a smart kind of podcasting that you want to make sure that you're protecting because you want to build, you know, a little empire on the podcast, those types of things, it makes sense to do that initial groundwork. And so I've referenced intent to use versus India's application. So there are two ways that you can register a trademark application in the United States. And one way is an intent to use the application. So that basically indicates to the United States Patent and Trademark Office that you have an idea, a trademark concept that you are going to put into action and actually be using in commerce. Shortly, you have to have this what they call a bonafide good intention to use, meaning you can't just walk on a name, because you know, somebody else is developing business. And you want to, you know, be able to sell them the mark, or whatever it may be, that's not going to fly, you're gonna end up in litigation. But let's say you're coming out with a course, and it's going to be a big thing, and you've got this catchy name, and you've done your groundwork, and you see that nobody's using it. And you want to, you know, snag it before you even launch, you can file outpatients and I intend to use it. And it does require some extra steps to get to the registration process. But you know, you kind of have a leg up, because you already have claimed the name. And now if somebody tries to come in about afterward, you've got that first-person line filing deadline or dates. So that's an intent to use in-use applications when you're actually already using the trademark. So you know, the name of your business, your tagline your logo, whatever it is, you're already using it, you're selling goods or conducting services. And you're ready to get that registration in place. So there are two different paths.

Kiva Slade 24:07

Two different paths, but definitely paths that we should be mindful of, okay. Because I love like you said, just like even doing that research on the front end, because I've seen people who've had to do rebrands because of the fact that what they were looking to use was already in use. And I think we have this misconception, it's like, well, if we change it 10% Or we do something else, that it's like this whole new thing, and it's like, well, I don't really think that's the way the law works, but okay.

Nicole Oden 24:38

Yeah, there are certain concepts that you cannot trademark I mean, you cannot trademark a generic name. You just can't do it because they don't want to prohibit people from using something that is so common and using descriptive names may not be trademark cool in terms of getting a registration doesn't mean it prevents you from using it. It just means you may not be able to actually get the registration, adding the ER and or an S to the end of a word or flipping words, probably not going to fly. Because when you submit the registration application, and examinees attorney is the sign to your application, and they do a very thorough search of all the marks that have already been registered. And you're probably going to get an office action that comes back and says, yeah, sorry, dude, we're not going to register this because there is a likelihood of confusion with another registered mark.

Kiva Slade 25:35

So, yeah, so what's not coming to America, McDonald's? It's like, How did that even happen? That's because it's a movie, everybody, don't go out there and try to do that yourself.

Nicole Oden 25:51

That's why it's so important to work with an attorney, right? Who has experience knowing what's different and unique versus what's too close that there could be an issue? I mean, if you think about Dove soap, and dove chocolate, which is a classic example, here, two completely different products with the same name, and that's fine. But you can't, you know, you can't then next, go and create a new company that, you know, don't chocolates or something like you're it's just not gonna fly,

Kiva Slade 26:20

right? It's not gonna happen. Oh, goodness. Well, I'm so thankful, though, Nicole, that you always are able to just break down these kinds of what most of us might feel are kind of complicated legal terms, and really make us understand how they are applicable to our businesses and essential in our business toolkit. As we continue to move forward, you know, even if we're thinking that, oh, we're kind of small, we don't have this, that or this going on, we still need to be mindful of those kinds of legal implications that really just come from how we're doing business in the space that we are doing business. So for those that might be interested in whether it's a template or a privacy policy for their website, they actually, fill out the part that's filled into the brackets. I'm in search of your company here. Do you have something for those that aren't in California? How can they continue to either purchase a template or find out more about you? Yes, so

Nicole Oden 27:17

I actually have a legal shop at NicoleCheriOdin.com That is my LLC, my online business baby. And you can snag a template for your website policy is to apply an agreement if you're a coach, a nondisclosure agreement, if you are, you know, contemplating hiring a contractor to come in and you want to kind of maybe have a discussion about what your business entails before you actually, you know, offer them the spots. All those good things are there in the legal shop so you can snag them.

Kiva Slade 27:17

We can also snag a podcast guest release. I may know something about that. Because let's be honest, there if it wasn't for Nicole seriously. And I'm Susanne Mariga, because I was on Susanne's podcast, she was the first person and she was not the first podcast I was on. She sent me this podcast guest release and I was like, Whoa, what is this new fancy stuff here. And it was like, wait a minute, and then I went to your site. And I was like, Nicole has a template. Oh, so this is like a part of the process. And it's something that like I said, I've been on multiple podcasts. And it wasn't something that I signed. Um, so it's so once again, it's just another kind of thing as your business grows, or as you start to implement new services, there might be something that you're overlooking, that you might actually want to have some self-care for yourself as a relates to that one, Bingham podcast gets released. So I'm sorry for cutting you off because you forgot to share how can we connect with you for other legal matters? I

Nicole Oden 28:51

was gonna say, I guess that kind of ties back into that comment. You know, sometimes people do have questions, and will this template work for me, and you know what, I'm completely honest. Sometimes you need a custom contract for whatever the situation is, or I just don't have something I don't have every contract under the sun because businesses are so unique. So if somebody has a question, and they want to reach out, and I can definitely point them towards a resource, or perhaps an attorney in their state, they can reach out at Nicole at NicoleCheriOdinlaw.com. Or they can contact me through NicoleCheriOden.com to as well, which has the template shop. And I'm always happy to do that because I would rather see people making sure they're getting the correct legal protections in place than just completely ignoring it.

Kiva Slade 29:34

Yes. And she has a vast network. I have tapped into it a few times. And she has great referrals. So all of those details will definitely be in the show notes. So I want to say thank you again, Nicole, for sharing with us your wealth of knowledge as it relates to protecting ourselves and our business and really our potential customers in what we do and keeping ourselves legally protected as well. So thank you so much for sharing with us and me any last parting words?

Nicole Oden 30:04

No, I guess just thank you she to you. I mean, this is amazing I think the process and you're so conversational. So it was like just hopping on and chatting with a friend. Again.

Kiva Slade 30:13

I love that. Well, yeah, then I have to make my way to California though so we can really chit-chat. So awesome. So make sure you guys check out the show notes for more on how you can contact Nicole at her law firm and or her template shop because hey, those contracts are definitely important and we want your privacy policies up to date. So make sure you check out the show notes for that and we'll see you next time. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Collab with Kiva. I hope you are feeling inspired and motivated to keep being your amazing self. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. Also, the reviews on Apple are greatly appreciated. They will help other women knows that their path is unique to them. If you're interested in being or finding a partner for this journey that you can collab with. Join us in The Collab, a community of female business owners on Facebook. See you next time.