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The Seen and the Unseen - hosted by Amit Varma
Ep 404: Devdutt Pattanaik and the Stories That Shape Us
Nov 11, 2024
Devdutt Pattanaik, an acclaimed author on Indian mythology, engages in a captivating discussion about how ancient stories shape modern society. He delves into themes like morality in Indian culture, the complexities of love, and the role of mythology in political narratives. Pattanaik contrasts Eastern and Western perspectives on identity and success, urging listeners to reflect on the deeper meanings behind cultural tales. He also touches on the struggles of wealth and the nuances of storytelling, emphasizing the importance of reclaiming agency in narratives.
12:08:38
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Quick takeaways
- Understanding past stories shapes societal norms and values.
- Reflecting on personal experiences aids in navigating societal expectations.
- Exploring LGBTQ+ experiences reveals complexities of love and companionship.
- Consumption and rights discourse intersect, highlighting overlooked transactional aspects.
- Balancing traditional values and liberal views requires nuanced societal governance approaches.
- The evolving nature of Indian epics reflects changing societal norms and values.
Deep dives
The Complexity of Identity Formation
The podcast delves into the intricate interplay between nature and nurture in forming individual and societal identities. It highlights how one's genetic makeup (hardware) and cultural influences (software) together shape behaviors, values, and societal norms. By exploring the stories societies tell themselves, incorporating history and mythology, the episode emphasizes the importance of understanding the past to comprehend the present. The conversation with the guest, Devdutt Patnayak, unfolds various perspectives on Indian mythology and societal differences from the Western world, shedding light on the nuanced constructs of personal and societal identities.
Exploring Personal and Family Dynamics
The host and guest engage in a candid discussion about personal experiences, childhood, and family influences. Devdutt Patnayak shares his journey from a nerdy, academically inclined childhood in Bombay to discovering his passion for mythology and navigating societal expectations. The narrative delves into the complexities of parental relationships, including Devdutt's perspective on his parents' insularity and the impact of his sexuality on his family dynamics. Through personal anecdotes, the episode illuminates the evolution of familial bonds and the challenges of reconciling individual identity with familial and societal norms.
Navigating Sexuality and Relationships
The podcast provides insights into the exploration of sexuality, relationships, and societal perceptions within the LGBTQ+ community. Devdutt Patnayak's reflections on discovering and coming to terms with his sexuality offer a unique perspective on self-acceptance and societal norms. The narrative spans the challenges and triumphs of seeking companionship, navigating the gay world, and experiencing personal growth amidst societal expectations. The episode sheds light on the nuances of love, companionship, and intimate relationships, presenting a candid portrayal of the complexities inherent in forging meaningful connections in diverse social landscapes.
Transaction and Consumption in Human Behavior
Transaction and consumption are foundational aspects of human behavior often overlooked. The discourse on rights and ethics does not adequately consider the transactional nature of interactions. Consumption, whether in terms of food or resources, involves a level of violence inherent in survival that is often ignored in societal frameworks.
Challenges of Rights Discourse and Consumption
The discussion on rights discourse, while important, faces challenges when addressing consumption and the cost of rights. Negative rights, based on non-interference, clash with positive rights that are often entitlements disguised as rights. The limitations of the rights discourse become evident when navigating the complexities of consumption, ethics, and societal frameworks.
Negotiating Traditional Values and Liberal Perspectives
Balancing traditional values with liberal viewpoints poses a challenge in societal governance. The tension between upholding cultural traditions and embracing liberal ideals requires a nuanced approach that respects individual agency while ensuring ethical boundaries. Navigating this delicate balance involves considerations of personal rights, societal norms, and ethical frameworks.
Ramayana and Mahabharata as Open Source Epics
The Ramayana and the Mahabharata are dynamic Indian epics that have been continuously rewritten over time, incorporating diverse perspectives and interpretations. Various versions of these epics feature different narratives and details, such as the depiction of Surpanakha's appearance or variations in the roles of characters like Lakshman. These evolving epics depict rich layers of society, reflecting changing societal norms, values, and beliefs across different time periods. They serve as open source narratives, allowing for creative reinterpretations and adaptations that capture the essence of each era.
Metaphorical Interpretation of Mythology
Mythology serves as a metaphorical tool that helps individuals navigate existential questions and uncertainties. Through mythical narratives, individuals grapple with complex ideas such as the purpose of life, the nature of existence, and the human relationship with divinity and nature. Indian mythology, with its multifaceted gods and goddesses, embodies diverse perspectives on life, death, and the interconnectedness of individuals within a cosmic framework. These metaphors offer symbolic interpretations of the human experience, providing insight into moral and philosophical dilemmas.
Interplay of Genetics and Environment in Mythology
Drawing parallels between the concept of the 'selfish gene' and mythology, the interconnectedness between biological entities and their environments is a recurring theme. Just as genes interact with ecosystems to survive and thrive, mythical narratives explore the interdependencies between characters, gods, and the world around them. Through metaphorical storytelling, mythology illuminates the intrinsic relationships between individuals, society, and the natural world, reflecting the inherent selfish or selfless attributes that shape human experiences.
Imagination Challenges Matter in Spirituality
Imagination challenges the limitations of measurement and materiality, presenting a reality beyond what can be quantified. Within spiritual contexts, the concept of selflessness, opposed to selfishness, is explored through the lens of imagination, highlighting the complexities of human nature and behavior.
Diversity and Complexity in Indian Thought
Indian thought is characterized by diversity and complexity, stemming from the historical and cultural nuances embedded in its beliefs. From the foundational concept of rebirth to the intricate layers of societal structure and mythology, Indian philosophy fosters an ecosystem rich in varied perspectives and interpretations, embracing a plethora of ideas and interpretations.
Navigating Homogeneity and Uniqueness in Hinduism
The tension between homogeneity and diversity within Hinduism reflects a broader societal struggle to balance standardization with individuality. While attempts to unify under a singular vision of Hinduism may pose challenges to the dynamic nature of its traditions, the inherent diversity and adaptability of Hindu thought continue to resist total homogenization, advocating for a nuanced and inclusive understanding of its multifaceted expressions.
The Structure and Rigor of Writing
Devdutt Patnayak follows a disciplined approach to writing, from organizing thoughts to structuring books meticulously. He views writing as transitioning from chaos to order, finding it therapeutic. Writing serves as a means to clarify and organize ideas for him, imprinting knowledge as he writes. Patnayak adapts his writing style based on his evolving understanding, focusing on engaging and informing his audience effectively. His unwinding through writing stems from the joy of discovery and sharing insights with readers.
Writing Process and Discipline
Devdutt Patnayak dedicates long hours to writing with disciplined focus, often engaging in long stretches, writing up to 17 hours a day and producing 2,000 to 3,000 words. His methodical planning, starting with the book title, summary, and outlining chapters, guides his writing process. Patnayak immerses himself in research, taking pleasure in uncovering lesser-known insights and presenting them in a relatable and engaging manner, focusing on connecting with his audience by sharing his excitement and curiosity.
Balance Between Architect and Gardener Writing Styles
Devdutt Patnayak combines elements of the architect and gardener styles of writing, meticulously planning and structuring his work while remaining open to emergent ideas and creativity. His writing process involves organizing thoughts to ensure clarity and coherence while allowing for spontaneous insights and arrangements. Striving for both order and creative exploration, Patnayak continuously refines his approach, adapting to the needs of his audience and the evolving landscape of his subjects.
The Complexity of Achievement and Happiness
Despite the pursuit of worldly success, a fundamental tension exists between worldly achievements and genuine happiness. The podcast delves into the paradox that even those considered successful often struggle with inner turmoil and a constant quest for more, revealing a deeper exploration of the dynamics between material success and true contentment.
Mythology as a Reflection of Life's Complexity
Mythology serves as a reflection of the complexities of human existence, offering valuable insights into the nature of life, imagination, and mortality. Through tales of various characters like Alexander the Great, Chinggis Khan, and mythical beings, the podcast highlights the significance of mythology in guiding human understanding of existential concepts like mortality and meaning.
Dealing with Life's Uncertainties and Imagination
The episode emphasizes the role of uncertainty and imagination in shaping human experiences and perceptions. By exploring themes of karma, storytelling, and the fluidity of existence, the narrative underscores the importance of navigating life's uncertainties, processing consequences, and embracing the imaginative richness inherent in mythological and philosophical reflections.
Importance of Infinity in Hinduism
Infinity is a crucial concept in Hinduism, ensuring the continuity of life without a sense of loss. The eternal nature of life is exemplified through the absence of tombstones in India, signifying the perpetual cycle of existence. The philosophical underpinning emphasizes watching the flow of life without fixating on individual fates, exploring the idea of life's continuity.
Structural Contrast in Bhagavad Gita
The Bhagavad Gita presents a profound structural contrast between characters like Dhritarashtra, who lacks vision despite extensive knowledge, and his charioteer Sanjay, who possesses infinite vision but limited power. This structural dichotomy illuminates deeper themes of knowledge and power, highlighted through Dhritarashtra's inquiry about the battle between his sons and Pandu's sons, symbolizing an 'us versus them' conflict. The nuanced use of language and familial relationships in the Gita underscores complex moral and ethical dilemmas.
Discussion on Territory, Property, and Social Darwinism
The discussion delves into the nuanced concepts of territory, property, and social behavior, exploring how humans and animals perceive and handle these constructs differently. While animal behavior is primarily driven by survival tied to territorial instincts, human notions of property extend beyond physical possession, involving complex social structures and individual rights. The narrative expands to challenge the Darwinian concept of the survival of the fittest in human societies, emphasizing the role of imagination, ethics, and cultural constructs in shaping behaviors and societal norms.
Exploring the Complexity of Cultures through Mythologies
Cultures are fundamentally different due to the mythologies that shape them, with unique and intricate narratives intertwining to form their identities. Devdutt delves into the essence of cultural diversity, emphasizing the impact of these mythologies on historical perspectives and beliefs.
Myth vs. History: Challenging Existing Narratives
Devdutt challenges the conventional dichotomy between myth and history, advocating for a more inclusive examination of narratives that have shaped human understanding. By critiquing the rigid distinctions between mythology and history, he underscores the importance of blending various perspectives.
Personal Evolution and Methodological Innovation in Mythology Studies
Embarking on uncharted territory within the realm of mythology studies, Devdutt's journey involves creating new methodologies and frames tailored to explore Indian mythologies. Overcoming self-doubt, he embraces a unique approach that fuses traditional wisdom with contemporary insights, fostering a deeper understanding of cultural complexities.
Dharma as Duty and Complex Interplay with Karma
Dharma is not about value judgments or right behavior. It is intricately connected with karma, leading to a complex interplay of actions and consequences. Dharma does not prescribe a specific code of conduct, but rather emphasizes fulfilling one's responsibilities and roles.
Interpreting Dharma in Mythological Context
Mythology often presents situations where actions may seem morally ambiguous. Characters like Ram killing Vali or Sugriva's actions are not about right or wrong, but about fulfilling roles within a structured narrative. These stories challenge conventional notions of righteousness by portraying complex moral dilemmas.
The Role of Darshan in Understanding Dharma
Darshan encapsulates seeing, insight, and reflection to understand the complexities of dharma. By exploring the motives, patterns, and repetitive themes in mythological narratives, one delves into a deeper understanding of dharma beyond simplistic moral judgments.
The Intersection of Management and Mythology
The fusion of management and mythology became evident as the speaker delved into the core concepts behind modern business practices. The realization that management principles were deeply rooted in ancient beliefs and ethical foundations led to the exploration of how mythology could inform and enhance contemporary management strategies. By identifying parallels between mythological narratives and business ethos, a new perspective emerged, highlighting the underlying cultural influences that shaped organizational dynamics.
Challenges and Revelations in the Business World
Transitioning from the pharmaceutical industry to the corporate landscape brought forth a series of challenges and revelations. The intricate interplay between traditional mythological frameworks and modern business philosophies shed light on diverse aspects such as belief systems, leadership dynamics, and the cultural underpinnings that influence organizational structures. These insights spurred a deeper understanding of how mythology could be leveraged to navigate complex business environments and foster innovative approaches.
Harnessing Mythological Wisdom for Professional Growth
The journey of incorporating mythological wisdom into professional endeavors showcased the transformative power of ancient narratives in shaping contemporary leadership paradigms. By embracing the inherent lessons and timeless philosophies embedded in mythology, the speaker navigated the realms of corporate strategy, cultural alignment, and individual growth. This harmonious integration of mythological insights with practical business acumen paved the way for holistic development and enriched professional experiences.
Books and Authors Recommendations
Some recommended books and authors are 'The Footprint of the Buddha' by Johan Elweskog, 'Prehistory of Hinduism' by Manu Devadevan, 'Unmasking Buddhism' by Bernard Faure, and 'Business Sutra' by Devdutt Pattanaik. Additionally, check out works by Peggy Mohan, Umakant Mishra, Bahata Mukhopadhyay, and critical editions of mythological topics.
Scholars and Historic Works
Explore the work of scholars like Bahata Mukhopadhyay for in-depth insights into the Harappan Script, Johan Elweskog for exploring Chinese language semiotics, and Kulke for understanding Odisha's history. Discover more through diverse historic works tailored to enlighten and educate.
The Power of Storytelling
Appreciate storytelling through media like 'The Hours' by Michael Cunningham and the movie adaptation. Delve into critical analyses of Indian languages and cultural nuances by authors like Peggy Mohan. Embrace engaging narratives that illuminate our diverse cultural heritage and language intricacies.
Our societies, our norms, our values are all shaped by stories from the past. Devdutt Pattanaik joins Amit Varma in episode 404 of The Seen and the Unseen to discuss his life, our society and why we should take mythology seriously. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) Also check out 1. Devdutt Pattanaik on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Wikipedia, YouTube, Amazon and his own website. 2. Myth = Mithya: Decoding Hindu Mythology -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 3. The Girl Who Chose -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 4. The Boys Who Fought -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 5. Ramayana Versus Mahabharata -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 6. My Gita -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 7. Bahubali: 63 Insights into Jainism -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 8. Sati Savitri -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 9. Business Sutra -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 10. Ahimsa: 100 Reflections on the Harappan Civilization -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 11. Olympus -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 12. Eden -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 13. East vs West -- The Myths That Mystify -- Devdutt Pattanaik's 2009 TED Talk. 14. Today My Mother Came Home -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 15. The Incredible Curiosities of Mukulika Banerjee — Episode 276 of The Seen and the Unseen. 16. The Life and Times of Mrinal Pande — Episode 263 of The Seen and the Unseen. 17. Sara Rai Inhales Literature — Episode 255 of The Seen and the Unseen. 18. The Life and Times of Shanta Gokhale — Episode 311 of The Seen and the Unseen. 19. Yuganta -- Irawati Karve. 20. Women in Indian History — Episode 144 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ira Mukhoty). 21. The Jewel in the Crown -- BBC TV series. 22. Heat and Dust -- James Ivory. 23. The Sexual Outlaw -- John Rechy. 24. Bombay Dost and Gay Bombay. 25. The Double ‘Thank You’ Moment — John Stossel. 26. The Kama Sutra. 27. Liberty -- Isaiah Berlin. 28. Thought and Choice in Chess -- Adriaan de Groot. 29. The Seven Basic Plots -- Christopher Booker. 30. The Seven Basic Plots -- Episode 69 of Everything is Everything. 31. The Hero with a Thousand Faces -- Joseph Campbell. 32. The Big Questions -- Steven Landsburg. 33. 300 Ramayanas — AK Ramanujan. 33. The egg came before the chicken. 34. The Evolution of Cooperation — Robert Axelrod. 35. The Trees -- Philip Larkin. 36. Who We Are and How We Got Here — David Reich. 37. Early Indians — Tony Joseph. 38. Tony Joseph’s episode on The Seen and the Unseen. 39. A Life in Indian Politics — Episode 149 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Jayaprakash Narayan). 40. The BJP Before Modi — Episode 202 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Vinay Sitapati). 41. Jugalbandi -- Vinay Sitapati. 42. Perfect Days -- Wim Wenders. 43. The Loneliness of the Indian Woman — Episode 259 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shrayana Bhattacharya). 44. The Loneliness of the Indian Man — Episode 303 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Nikhil Taneja). 45. Mary Wollstonecraft and bell hooks. 46. If India Was Five Days Old -- Devdutt Pattanaik. 47. The Road to Freedom — Arthur C Brooks. 48. The Master and His Emissary -- Iain McGilchrist. 49. This Be The Verse — Philip Larkin. 50. Human -- Michael Gazzaniga. 51. The Elephant in the Brain — Kevin Simler and Robin Hanson. 52. The Blank Slate -- Steven Pinker. 53. Amitava Kumar Finds the Breath of Life — Episode 265 of The Seen and the Unseen. 54. Wanderers, Kings, Merchants — Peggy Mohan. 55. Understanding India Through Its Languages — Episode 232 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Peggy Mohan). 56. The Reformers -- Episode 28 of Everything is Everything. 57. The Golden Bough -- James Frazer. 58. Myth And Reality: Studies In The Formation Of Indian Culture -- DD Kosambi. 59. Srimad Bhagavatam -- Kamala Subramaniam. 60. Boris Vallejo on Instagram, Wikipedia and his own website. 61. The Last Temptation Of Christ -- Nikos Kazantzakis. 62. The Last Temptation Of Christ -- Martin Scorcese. 63. Jeff Bezos on The Lex Fridman Podcast. 64. The Poem of the Killing of Meghnad -- Michael Madhusudan Dutt. 65. Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil — Hannah Arendt. 66. The Crown -- Created by Peter Morgan. 67. Profit = Philanthropy — Amit Varma. 68. Imaginary Number — Vijay Seshadri. 69. The Buddha's Footprint -- Johan Elverskog. 70. A Prehistory of Hinduism -- Manu Devadevan. 71. The ‘Early Medieval' Origins of India -- Manu Devadevan. 72. Unmasking Buddhism -- Bernard Faure. 73. The Red Thread -- Bernard Faure. 74. The Power of Denial -- Bernard Faure. 75. The Thousand and One Lives of the Buddha -- Bernard Faure. 76. A Modern Look At Ancient Chinese Theory Of Language -- Chad Hansen. 77. Hermann Kulke, Umakant Mishra and Ganesh Devy on Amazon. 78. The Hours -- Michael Cunningham. 79. The Hours -- Stephen Daldry. 79. Ancestral Dravidian languages in Indus Civilization -- Bahata Ansumali Mukhopadhyay. 80. Myth -- Laurence Coupe. This episode is sponsored by Rang De, a platform that enables individuals to invest in farmers, rural entrepreneurs and artisans. Amit Varma and Ajay Shah have launched a new course called Life Lessons, which aims to be a launchpad towards learning essential life skills all of you need. For more details, and to sign up, click here. Amit and Ajay also bring out a weekly YouTube show, Everything is Everything. Have you watched it yet? You must! And have you read Amit’s newsletter? Subscribe right away to The India Uncut Newsletter! It’s free! Also check out Amit’s online course, The Art of Clear Writing. Episode art: ‘Story’ by Simahina.
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