Dave Snowden & Mary Boone - Bramble Bushes in a Thicket
Feb 22, 2021
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Leaders in the business world need to embrace complexity and paradox, understanding when to share power or wield it alone. Dave Snowden and Mary Boone discuss the Knevin framework for decision-making in social systems. They explore topics like rethinking government, mapping culture, and conflict resolution. Their perspectives also touch on crisis management, health, religion, and climate warming.
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Quick takeaways
The Knevin framework provides a tool for understanding complex systems and challenges traditional notions of leadership development.
Sensemaker, developed by Dave Snowden, is a valuable tool for mapping culture, facilitating conversations, and generating novel insights in complex systems.
Deep dives
The Knevin framework: a simple tool to understand complex systems
The podcast episode features guests David Snowden and Mary Boone, who discuss the Knevin framework, a tool for understanding complex systems. The Knevin framework categorizes systems into five contexts: simple, complicated, complex, chaotic, and disorder. The framework emphasizes the importance of understanding the present state of a system before planning for the future. It challenges the traditional notion of leadership development and emphasizes the need to change interactions rather than trying to change individuals. The guests also discuss how the Knevin framework can be applied to fields such as culture mapping, crisis management, mental health, and conflict resolution. They highlight the value of narrative-based reflection and peer-to-peer learning in leadership development.
Sensemaker: a tool for understanding complex systems at scale
The podcast episode introduces Sensemaker, a tool developed by Dave Snowden that allows for the collection and analysis of narratives at scale. Sensemaker enables organizations to map culture, gather customer insights, and facilitate conversations in complex systems. It employs a distributed ethnographic approach, asking participants to share stories and interpret them using quantitative metrics. The tool helps identify patterns and areas for improvement, allowing organizations to adapt and change their interactions. It also promotes abductive research, providing a way to handle uncertainty and generate novel insights. The guests discuss the potential applications of Sensemaker in areas such as rethinking government, organizational design, and research.
The need to rethink leadership in the face of complexity
The podcast episode highlights the need to rethink leadership in the face of complexity. Traditional leadership approaches, designed for ordered environments, may no longer be effective in dealing with the increasing complexity and chaos of today's world. The guests emphasize the importance of developing leaders who can navigate complex systems and manage connections rather than relying on rigid processes or individual qualities. They advocate for a practice-based approach to leadership development, focusing on changing interactions and processes to enable adaptation and innovation. The conversation also touches on the limitations of competency-based approaches and the role of narrative, ambiguity, and ecological thinking in understanding and influencing human behavior.
The enduring impact of the Knevin framework
The podcast episode discusses the enduring impact of the Knevin framework, which was first introduced in a 2007 article by David Snowden and Mary Boone. The framework has gained recognition and staying power, offering a simple and practical tool for leaders to navigate complexity. The guests highlight the framework's relevance in current times, particularly in the face of events such as the COVID-19 pandemic and political upheaval. They emphasize the framework's ability to help leaders understand and manage complexity, adapt to changing circumstances, and challenge traditional approaches to leadership. The guests also express their appreciation for the continued interest and engagement with the framework over the years.
"In the complex environment of the current business world, leaders often will be called upon to act against their instincts. They will need to know when to share power and when to wield it alone, when to look to the wisdom of the group and when to take their own counsel. A deep understanding of context, the ability to embrace complexity and paradox, and a willingness to flexibly change leadership style will be required for leaders who want to make things happen in a time of increasing uncertainty." - Snowden and Boone
"Complex adaptive systems are deeply entangled. And I think that's the key metaphor for complexity. Everything is entangled with everything else...Juarrero famously said, 'it's like bramble bushes in a thicket.'"
"It’s so clear to me now, why people struggle so much with approaches to leadership, because most of them were developed for an ordered environment...they weren’t really developed for handling the complexity and the chaos."
"If you know anything about the natural science, you know that connections matter more than things. So the work we’re doing on leadership development is all about changing connectivity. For leaders, and
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