Why Trump Can’t Shake Jeffrey Epstein

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Jul 17, 2025

Will Sommer, a reporter at The Bulwark and author of 'Trust the Plan,' delves into the intersection of conspiracy theories and the MAGA mindset. He unpacks how the Jeffrey Epstein scandal challenges Trump's credibility as an outsider. The discussion explores the psychological appeal of QAnon and its bizarre beliefs, especially among disillusioned Trump supporters. Sommer also highlights the tensions within the MAGA base regarding Trump's connections to Epstein and the demand for transparency surrounding the case, raising critical questions about power dynamics and accountability.

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INSIGHT

QAnon's Emotional Power

QAnon blends elaborate satanic pedophile cabal myths with real fears of elite abuse and corruption.
It resonated emotionally by promising a coming storm to overthrow these villains and improve lives.

ANECDOTE

QAnon Offers Hope to the Vulnerable

Will Sommer met a cancer patient who believed Trump would bring the storm and cure her illness.
This highlighted QAnon's messianic appeal, providing hope to vulnerable people.

INSIGHT

The Epstein Enigma

Jeffrey Epstein was wealthy, well-connected, and accused of extensive sex crimes, triggering widespread intrigue.
The mystery of his wealth and connections fueled suspicions of deeper secrets and cover-ups.

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MAGA has been infighting over the Jeffrey Epstein files. And that’s because the conspiracy theories around Epstein hit at the very core of MAGA’s whole worldview.

Today’s episode looks closer at that worldview. Will Sommer has been tracking conspiracies for years now. He was a reporter at The Washington Post and is now at The Bulwark, and he’s the author of “Trust the Plan: The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy That Unhinged America.”

In this conversation, we discuss the rise of QAnon, Donald Trump’s slippery relationship to the more conspiracy-minded factions of his base and how the intrigue around the Epstein files has challenged his credibility as an outsider taking on the “corrupt elites.”

This episode contains strong language.

Mentioned:

“MAGA Is Tearing Itself Apart Over Jeffrey Epstein” by David French

P.R.R.I. Survey

Nixonland by Rick Perlstein

Book Recommendations:

Buckley by Sam Tanenhaus

American Tabloid by James Ellroy

Low Life by Lucy Sante

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker, Jack McCordick and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Mia Bloom and Sophia Moskalenko.

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