The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie

Leigh Stein and Julius Taranto: Did Wokeness and Trump Kill Literary Satire?

Apr 2, 2025

Leigh Stein and Julius Taranto, both satirical novelists, dive into the role of satire today. Stein, known for her sharp wit addressing the wellness industry, and Taranto, whose work explores cancel culture, discuss whether today's cultural climate allows for impactful satire. They reflect on how novels can outshine other media and critique societal absurdities, especially within feminism. With TikTok shaping reading preferences, they examine how younger audiences are reviving interest in literature, making a case for the transformative potential of modern storytelling.

52:15

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Episode guests

Julius Taranto

Leigh Stein

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Quick takeaways

Leigh Stein and Julius Taranto illustrate how their novels critique societal absurdities, showcasing satire's role as a vital form of social commentary.

The authors discuss the evolving literary landscape, highlighting how social media revitalizes interest in reading and challenges traditional publishing norms.

Deep dives

Redefining Satire in the Modern Age

The conversation emphasizes the evolving nature of satire in contemporary society, particularly through the works of Lee Stein and Julius Toronto. Their novels explore themes that challenge societal norms, such as the absurdities of the wellness industry and the dynamics of academic cancel culture. Stein's 'Self Care' critiques the female empowerment narratives intertwined with the wellness industry, while Toronto's 'How to Win a Nobel Prize' delves into the concept of a university exclusively for those who have been canceled. Both authors suggest that satire remains a vital form of social commentary, capable of addressing and exposing the follies of modern life.

Intro

2min

The Transformative Power of Novels and Literary Inspiration

3min

Exploring the Role and Impact of Satire in Contemporary Literature

3min

Navigating the Absurdities of American Literature

21min

Navigating Feminism and Satire in Contemporary Literature

2min

Reviving Reading: TikTok's Influence and Literary Gender Dynamics

3min

Navigating Identity in Publishing

17min

Satire is a powerful force for political and cultural change. But is it even possible in a world that outstrips our imagination on a daily—or even hourly—basis?

Today's guests are two young novelists who are redefining satire in the 21st century. Leigh Stein is the author of Self Care, which is set at a women's wellness startup where things go very wrong. Her next novel, If You're Seeing This, It's Meant for You, takes place at a social media hype house and comes out in August. Julius Taranto is the author of How I Won a Nobel Prize, which is set at a secretive university funded by a reclusive billionaire and staffed exclusively by faculty who have been canceled elsewhere. His reviews and essays have been published in The Washington Post, The New York Review of Books, The Chronicle of Higher Education, and elsewhere.

Reason's Nick Gillespie talks with them about the widely pronounced post-election vibe shift by which artists feel emboldened once again to slay sacred cows with impunity. And they explore whether contemporary markets for books, movies, plays, music, and other forms of creative expression are actually capable of supporting a new era of satire, parody, and self-examination.

This interview was recorded at The Reason Speakeasy, a live monthly event in New York City that doubles as a live taping of The Reason Interview. Go here for more information on upcoming Reason events.

1:30—What is the purpose of a novel?
4:49—What is the function of satire?
9:03—Philip Roth declared satire impossible in 1961
12:30—How culture has fractured
15:17—Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and figures beyond satire
18:31—Class dimensions of satire
22:52—How Stein's feminist activism inspired Self Care
23:58—Tom Wolfe and satirical realism
31:25—Is the world becoming post-literate?
32:54—Has the novel been feminized?
34:25—Joe Rogan as the successor to Marcel Proust?
35:28—How women dominate the publishing industry
47:43—Stein's cultural criticism and poetry