How to Avoid Death by Affiliates w/ Dave Woodward

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In this episode, Dan Henry sits down with Dave Woodward from Clickfunnels to talk about everything affiliate marketing! Dave started in 2008 with his own digital marketing agency, and after meeting Russell Brunson joined the Clickfunnels team, and the rest is history!

Dave is going to explain to you one of the most significant pieces of starting an affiliate program inside of your company — what to look for in the people you allow to become an affiliate marketer and represent you.

Additionally, Dave will cover why "knowing your numbers" can literally make or break new connections and why you can't afford to do that the wrong way.

In this episode, Dan and Dave are going to cover:

• What to look for in an affiliate marketing partner for your company
• The real reasons behind WHY you should (or should not) start an affiliate program for your business
• Tips and tricks for running an affiliate program for business owners who sell physical products, online courses, masterminds, and digital products
• Payout options for your affiliates (how much you should give them for bringing you new business)
• Why "knowing your numbers" is one of the most crucial pieces of affiliate marketing

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— TRANSCRIPT —

Dan Henry (00:00):

In today's episode, I have Dave Woodward, and he's going to talk about how to use affiliate and joint ventures to grow your company like a skyscraper. Welcome.

Dan Henry (00:28):

Welcome, Dave, how you doing, man?

Dave Woodward (00:31):

Man. So excited to be here.

Dan Henry (00:34):

That intro gets everybody. Oh, man. So I'm super excited because you know I've struggled in my career with the whole affiliate JV thing, and I believe that you are the number one person to really you're the, you're the, you're the authority on this in my eyes, because you know, at the end of the day at least back when, when I was coming up, you, you headed and you manage the entire ClickFunnels affiliate program, correct? Yep. Yeah. And, and, and I know you've, you've moved on from there, but I mean that program, I mean, how, how beneficial to the company has that affiliate program been?

Dave Woodward (01:22):

Oh, great question. I can tell you, we actually started ClickFunnels on the back of an affiliate program. Russell and I both came from affiliate marketing and it was really what we knew best. And because of that, we did a lot of joint ventures. We had a lot of friends in the industry and then from that, we actually built it so that everybody who had a click funnels account automatically became an affiliate. And that was a, so there was a little powered by ClickFunnels button at the bottom where everyone if they clicked on that, they made money. And so we set up the entire company based on an affiliation.

Dan Henry (01:51):

Awesome. Awesome. So before we get into the nitty-gritty, can you just give a little bit of background cause you know, probably most people that follow me know exactly who you are, but just in case just give me a little bit of background on how you got involved in affiliate marketing and in click funnels and just how this all kind of came together.

Dave Woodward (02:14):

Sure. I started off, I had my own digital marketing agency. Actually, it wasn't digital at the time, it was actually a physical marketing agency. We did a lot of direct mail response type of stuff, and it was 2008, 2009. And I was had a lot of clients who were trying to figure out this whole online thing. So I actually saw a seminar coming to town. Russell happened to be presenting. It was his seminar on affiliate marketing. It was he in Stu McLaren. And so I went there. It's where I first met Russell. I remember he was speaking. He had said basically, Hey, if you guys would like to get to know us a little better, you can go to the backroom and sign up for lunch or dinner, take us out to lunch dinner. So I ran to the back. I signed up for every breakfast, lunch, and dinner Russell had. And we literally just from that became dear friends. And that's really when Russell had done a whole bunch of different things over the years in different industries, some worked some didn't and when ClickFunnels came around, he provided me the opportunity to be in a partner and the rest is history.

Dan Henry (03:06):

Awesome. Awesome. And, and you know, if you don't mind me asking right now, ClickFunnels is, is probably valued at, at a, at a huge and a huge amount. I mean, you guys have built, you know, you see these softwares out here that, you know, you don't know who the owner is. You barely remember them unless somebody mentions them and then you got ClickFunnels and you guys have everything. You have the software, you have the community, you have the events, you have the educational products to go with the software you have. I mean, you have people that have tattooed your logo on their skin. In fact, I believe there's, there are two tattoos, you know what I mean? That's, that's something. So are you, I don't know how you guys quantify it, but would you say you're a, you know, a nine-figure company?

Dave Woodward (03:53):

I would think we're real close to that we did about, Oh, I can do last year, we did 136 million, so wow. The multiple on that and

Dan Henry (04:00):

That's insane. And, and would you say that the, that affiliates, because, you know, look I've made, I don't, I don't, I got to look, but I know it's in between maybe 600 and a million. I'd have to look, but I know it's well over half a million in commissions that I've made with you guys. And honestly, I just, I don't actually actively promote. I just recommend people buy my products and I recommend it because I use your product, I use your product every day. And so I recommend it. And that's how, you know, that's how I make my commissions. I don't even actively go, Hey, you should sign up for our click funnels account. I just say, Hey, here's, you know, here's some funnels that I have. And here you can have them, like, for instance, I got this one funnel, it's a chargeback prevention funnel and it's just a very simple funnel.

Dan Henry (04:49):

And when you know how to use it, it prevents chargeback. Then it's on ClickFunnels. If people download that, then they, you know, I get a commission for that. And so it's, it's, it's great, you know? But let me ask you this. I had an experience with my affiliate program that was sort of devastating and I, that's why I don't have an affiliate program anymore. And I believe you can shed some light on this. When I did my, and keep in mind that if you're a big company, a big software company, this is probably not the case, but for somebody like me, who, you know, I only have maybe 10 employees. I keep my business small. I mean, we're an eight-figure company, but I don't want to be that big. I want to keep, you know, I want to go out on a, on my yacht and spend 30 days out on the water and I don't want to be running around like you and Russell with these events and all this crazy stuff.

Dan Henry (05:37):

My ambitions don't go that high. So, so, you know, I, I started an affiliate program a while back. And what we found was that because we run so much, so much paid traffic, when we did an audit, we found that about 90% of our sales first from a Facebook ad or a YouTube ad, and then some affiliate got a commission. And then we also found that, you know, with the affiliates, it was everybody always had a question and did I get this commission and did, why didn't I get this commission? And this guy did. And it was like sorta like owning a daycare where all the kids were arguing over the toys. And it took so much of my staff's time. It was so stressful that eventually, I said, screw it. And I cut it out. And when I cut it out, our revenue did not drop at all, but our profits went up because we didn't have to pay affiliates.

Dan Henry (06:33):

And I didn't have to hire people to, to do that stuff. Now at the same time, if I only did an affiliate program and I didn't do paid traffic, I think that would be amazing because then you've just locked in the fact that like, let's say you pay a 40% commission. Like you don't know what your cost per sale is on Facebook ads and that spend on your creatives. But if you pay 40% commission and you only run an affiliate program, you know, your cost per sale is 40%. So let me ask you this, where do you think I might've gone wrong? Or maybe I didn't go wrong? And how, what would you have done differently? In my case,

Dave Woodward (07:07):

I think Dan I've seen in your case, I wouldn't have done anything differently. You'll find especially you're selling more of a high-end coaching program. And so with that, you've gotten really good at driving traffic. And I think that if you're really good at driving traffic and you don't really feel a need to have to bring on other partners to actually go out and do that for you, I keep doing what you're doing. I can tell you from an affiliate standpoint I look at affiliates, affiliate marketing is a really large broad term, and I know from our stamp, but one of the things I look at all the time is more from a marketing integration, where I would love to have our, our platform as it is with you. It's basically on the back end of your other products. And those are some of the very best affiliates to have because it's not the hard part that you were experiencing was you get a lot of the affiliates who are out there.

Dave Woodward (07:58):

They're just out there to make a quick buck. And if your offer isn't converting the way they want, they'll go bounce to someone else. There are no legions. There's no commitment to you. I look at affiliate marketing from a company's perspective as a company, I'm always looking for partners. I want to find partners who are going to be with us for the longterm in your situation. I would say, you know, who are the people? If you were to look at doing a new affiliate program, I would say, who are the partners I want, who have a similar product line for us? I remember Alex Mendoza in years ago with telemarketing seminar. He basically had a product where in the end, if on his cancellation funnel, he actually would refer people to his competitors and the execution and getting the commission. You get an affiliate link because he knew that they were going to go anyways.

Dave Woodward (08:43):

And so he actually had as part of his exit funnel and the affiliate link that basically took him, you know what? You're going to listen, you're leaving anywayanyways. I want to make sure you go to the right people. And so he basically, he had an agreement with basically another person he could refer to. And it actually was a handoff. And was it worked out great for the customer, worked out great for him. I look at the same thing from your situation. There are people who you work with, people who love your products and services. Those are the people who you want to promote your products. And I'm sure you right now, at this point, you could go to, you've had so many case studies of super successful clients who would gladly refer business to you. And that's the type of an affiliate or partner type of program.

Dave Woodward (09:23):

I would look at doing more so than just a typical, I mean, Amazon, Amazon's got an affiliate market for them. There's a whole, I mean, major companies have these huge affiliate programs where they really don't care that much about the affiliate. It's just, you know, what, if you're gonna send us additional traffic. Great. when you're building a company and a brand like yours, and even for us I've, we've changed our affiliate program a ton. We used to be 40% and then I dropped it down to 20% to really see people. If they're the right people coming in and they can go from 20 to 30 in the Betsy from 30 to 40, because of what you just heard a tiered type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I want, I want to make sure we've got the right affiliates promoting. There's nothing worse than people who are out there.

Dave Woodward (10:02):

And if they don't like you, all of a sudden, they promote someone else. I'm looking for a partner. And I think, I feel like marketing versus integration, marketing, and partner marketing or JB marketing. There are three different areas to it. I really prefer the latter two. I love marketing integration where we're just on the back end. We could be an upsell for somebody else. You could be the exact same thing where you find someone who doesn't have a high-end coaching program where you become their next offer. And that's great, you're not going to get that traffic anyways. They've already come in. They've, they've enjoyed whoever they currently were. And now all of a sudden you can go to those people say, listen, you know, you stop at whatever thousand or $2,000 product. You don't have an additional product, but your clients are going to go someplace anyways.

Dave Woodward (10:43):

Why not send them to us? And in that case, I would have a partner program with a handful of those people. And I would, I would use a dream, 100 strategies, set that up. The same type of thing would happen from again, if I'm looking at just affiliates I feel it's our diamond. Doesn't just like companies can be a diamond doesn't. And so it's really finding the right ones. When you find the right ones. Again, Dan, we love sending you checks because we know the classes love you. And that's because the clients you send us are good clients. There's nothing more frustrating than the experience that you had, where you're going. Listen, I'm basically, I feel it's just piggybacking on my ads. We struggle with that all the time and people and go, Hey, use my link. And it's like, that's not why we're doing no, no, not at all.

Dave Woodward (11:33):

And I try so hard to teach our affiliates. Listen, we're going to go get our own traffic. I don't need you piggybacking. I don't want you to buy it. In fact, in our terms of service, you can't bid on our keywords. You can't bid on those kinds of stuff. You look, we'll just kick you out of being an affiliate. What I'm looking for is people who don't know about click funnels and they have their own little niche. They might be in the underwater basket weaving club, and they're trying to teach others how to do the same thing. And I'm not going to tap, tap into that if they can send us leads great. But from a paid marketing standpoint, I don't, we're going to, you know, we're similar to you. We spend a ton of money, a lot of money on paid ads. The last thing I want is an affiliate piggybacking on my ad. Right? I don't need those. And so again, we spent a lot of money trying from a compliance standpoint, getting those out and I would sell anybody. If you're looking to start an affiliate program. The first thing I would make sure is if you're not the whole reason you're starting affiliate programs, cause you're not good at driving traffic.

Dan Henry (12:31):

See, that's a great point because I started my affiliate program for the dumbest reason. I was just like, well, you know, click funnels has an affiliate program. I guess I should have one too. Like, it was just, there was, it was nonsensical. And, and that was in my early days before I learned to really like, think about things in business and Oh, Oh, you've got software. I should have software. Oh, you have this, I should have this. Or you have an event. I should have an event. And it's just, there's no sense to it. You got to think about your business and what, what works for you. So it sounds like what you're saying is, and I do, I do have one question here actually before I get to that, would you say that the issues we're talking about here are predominantly in the finance or like the make money space? Because like, let's say you sell something that has nothing to do with making money. Let's say it's a productivity offer. It's canvas art or whatever. And you say to your customers that have bought your canvas art or your fidget spinners or whatever it is, Hey, recommend this to your friends and you'll get a commission. Here's how to do it. So do you feel like in those industries and in for those offers that you won't have such a hard time with affiliates or do you think it's the same?

Dave Woodward (13:45):

No, I, I would totally agree with you. Anytime you can have a customer refer you, it's a completely different ball game because it's coming from the heart. They, and it's, that's a win, win. They've already experienced your product and they're basically referring you and you're giving them a commission for that. So I highly recommend it. If I was to start any affiliate program, the only I would ever do is I would work first with the people who have already been archived our customers. Okay.

Dan Henry (14:10):

So let me ask you this. Do you have any tips for... let's just use an example. Let's say it's like canvas art or, or just, just some like normal e-commerce product, right? A physical product, nothing life-Changing nothing like a coaching program. Just something cool. Right? Do you have any specific suggestions for maybe including something when you mail it out or, or in your email sequences or whatever, to immediately capitalize on a new customer to bring you more customers?

Dave Woodward (14:42):

So a referral program?

Dan Henry (14:43):

Right. Like, obviously having the referral program, but, but in other words, getting that customer to be excited about it and do it and making it as easy as possible on them to execute it.

Dave Woodward (14:55):

The answer to that is yes. For sure. I can tell you, it's typically hard on the first purchase when they're, so again, you're shit. You're, you're shipping out fidget spinners, right. Or whatever my case and all of a sudden they get the fidget spinner. They're like, Oh, that's cool. It's if they reorder, anytime this person reorders that's to me is I've got, I've got somebody who loves my product. And so on any reorder, I would always have some offer if especially you're sending out something physical, they're going to open up, definitely make sure you have an offer in there. And you could even have a, we've actually done a lot of our packages where basically it'd be just a QR code and it's a quick little, they scan that. And it's a video of you saying, Hey, before you open up my package, obviously you've enjoyed a product. It's the second time you've re you've reordered from us. If you'd like, we actually would love for you to refer our business and in doing so, we'll give you a 10% or 20 whatever the percentage is. I think that the big mistake most people make when they're starting to feel it program is they don't know their numbers. And you really, really have to know your numbers. If you don't know your numbers, I would never start an affiliate program.

Dan Henry (16:01):

Yeah. That's where I made the mistake because I, you know, I was doing fine with acquiring customers, customers, myself, and then I go in and go, Hey, all you guys are there. You want to cut to my profits just to, just to discuss things with each other and message each other and use, share links. Here you go. And, and you know, it killed me. So, so would you say, cause when you, as you were talking, I kind of got an idea here. What if you had like one really good, like your top affiliate, right. And again, we're talking about like the fidget spinners, the canvas art or something. Could you maybe include a piece of paper in there with a big image that says, you know, case study, how our customer, John, you know, made X amount of dollars and then it's like, would you like to make money like John by referring, you know, go scan this QR code?

Dave Woodward (16:51):

Totally, definitely. Would I totally would just go to this link or whatever. I mean, anytime you've got a case study, any cat on me, I can have somebody again, realize the whole reason you have an affiliate program is I want someone else speaking on behalf of our company. So if I've got a great case study of a customer who has had amazing success and I can include that in my package, out for my canvas art. And they now receive that they're going, Oh my gosh, I actually, I would love to be just like that person. So yeah. Wow.

Dan Henry (17:20):

And then you provided you maybe provide some free education on how to, how to do so. Yeah. Which is what you guys did. I mean, that's what you guys did. You guys had all this education on how to be an amazing affiliate, but you know, your, your product is the product that they're promoting as an affiliate. So it's a win-win for everybody. So that's amazing. So, so let's now shift to people who aren't selling fidget spinners and who aren't selling, you know just commodities or, or just stuff that isn't, life-changing per se and more to the higher end, like the coaching and the courses and the software and the things like that in which may be a standard affiliate program would not be a good idea. You know, and like we talked about finding partners that are high quality that are going to, you know, instead of having 500 affiliates that all refer one or two sales a month, you maybe have five affiliates that, you know, do a good job. Do you have any specific tips for that or how to approach that?

Dave Woodward (18:19):

I would actually, I would look at realizing. So take, for example, Russell had years ago, his inner circle, we never ever pay commission on inner circle. Right. And what happened is, as people progressed up the value ladder they re they got commissioned on the lower tier products and nothing on the high tier product. I would look at the exact same thing. If you've got a high-end coaching program, there's other products and services that I would end up offering commission on, I would not offer it on the high end one. And I would, I would, again, I would pay out a hundred percent is again, you got to know your numbers. Ideally, I look at an affiliate program. I would love to get to a point where even at ClickFunnels, it was a CPA offer where we literally, I can tell you right now for us to go out and get a free trial.

Dave Woodward (19:04):

It would cost us anywhere between 135 and 140 bucks realizing 40% of those people are actually going to convert, you know, do the math. It's almost, it's never about 250 bucks for us. That's actually paying for a customer. So we've gone the other way on the affiliate program. I can tell you though, if I, right now, I know on our books, our books currently.com secrets, expert secrets, traffic secrets, our average car value ranges between 55 and $60. I literally would be much more inclined to have, I pay out a hundred percent of that and nothing on the backend because I know in our own marketing and things, we can then convert like crazy. I would even payout 150%, you know, just get the books out because over time people are going to, they're going to get much better. They're going to get the indoctrination, they're going to get the education and then we can convert them. This again, DML goes back to really, if you know your numbers well enough and you know how far out you can actually. So for us, I look at whenever I'm talking with John on a monthly ad spend, I'm looking to really recoup our ad spend in the same month. Right. If I was to expend that two months out or three months out, it would completely change how we market. I just, we haven't gotten to that point yet.

Dan Henry (20:12):

And your accountant would probably be sweating bullets. So that's what we do. We break even pretty much. So like we have about right now, we're running a $51 AOV on our free plus shipping book funnel. And we have the same month, you know, we break even cause there's, you know, there's upsells and all that. So, so let me ask you this. Let's say I gave like nine, cause you know, there, there is a cost to shipping the book and or maybe you don't pay, perhaps maybe you pay a hundred percent commission on everything, but the shipping, something like that, I don't know, you know? Cause that goes to the postman, right? So let's say you're 90 something super lucrative, 90 or a hundred percent commission on the book and any upsells. And, and so that's every, every buyer that you send, let's just say, you're getting around 50 bucks. That's a pretty good deal for anybody. And then if they read the book and they ended up buying, whatever comes after that, that's all, that's all mine or whoever's. So my question to you is, would you still, in that case, go after a small amount of partners or would you open it up to everybody knowing that, you know, knowing that you're also running ads and all that?

Dave Woodward (21:27):

I would always start with small, different partners. I prefer testing small in anything. So I would go out and I test it first and it's a lot easier after I've done it with 10 or 15 partners because then I really know what their metrics are. I can literally, I could literally look at each one of the 15 people and say, okay, this person converts at this level, this one. And then if I want to open it up larger, I would then say, you know what? I will continue to supervise to do it again. I would then say here, then it let's say that they converted 60% or some crazy number. If all of a sudden I'm bringing on other partners, I would tell them, listen, I'll pay you the one hundred percent CPA. But if your conversions are less than that, I'm going to drop the commission. And that way I'm getting better quality people. I can tell you I've, I've looked at Louie was just meeting with our, our BI team on looking at churn by affiliate and cause we're a SAS company. Right. And I would much rather, I would much rather pay more commission to people who stay, who bring clients who stick on the books longer and less commission because I really, I don't even really want to reward people who are turning out fast for us. Right.

Dan Henry (22:33):

You have some like, like, you know, hype-y blog posts that, you know, you can make a million dollars in five minutes with click funnels then, you know, versus, you know, people like the people that I send you are like coaches, consultants, course creators, you know, and they're using this in my program, you know, for weeks and for months not years, you know? So, so let me ask you this. Do you find that these good affiliates or these good partners are these good joint venture people do, are they going to want a piece of that high ticket? Because it's not necessarily that I would mind giving it a piece. It's, it's a lot of logistics because it's a phone call. I gotta pay my reps, a commission. It's very hard to track. And, I guess my question is, can you find good partners that you can pay a hundred or 90 to 100% commission on the front end? Who isn't going to want a piece of the backend?

Dave Woodward (23:30):

I think it's just a limiting belief. You have the answer is yes. I believe that I can tell you honestly, only because we've done it. We have, again, I was talking about some of the numbers. We just did our virtual event. The first time we rolled out it again, it's a $2,500 a month program. We don't pay affiliates on that.

Dan Henry (23:47):

Yeah. So, and you, you guys, you smashed it didn't you, you just smashed it. It went really well. Yeah, that's it. I know we were talking about it before. I won't, I won't say anything, but I know you smashed it. I know it was ridiculous. I thought I felt good at my million dollar day doing my virtual event from my dining room. And then you told me what you guys did and I felt small again. So thank you. Great. Congratulations. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate that, Dave. And last,

Dave Woodward (24:11):

Let's go back to your question real quick. I did want to make sure that people it's really clear when people understand there are people out there who are, and again, realize when you're looking at the right partners. That's the key. If you find the right partners. Yes, they will. For sure. I mean, we have a hundred, we pay out a hundred bucks, a hundred percent. CPN our One Funnel Away Challenge, the best thing we ever did. We get

Dan Henry (24:30):

Run that back. You pay... expand on that a little bit. You have your one fall. So it's a challenge. And I know cause I wrote one of the chapters for it. So that's the "30 days if I lost it all" One Funnel Away Challenge. Okay. So for that, it's a hundred bucks. And what commission do you pay on that?

Dave Woodward (24:50):

We give a hundred percent of the affiliate.

Dan Henry (24:51):

So it's a hundred percent commission and then obviously there's some sort of sale on the backend. And so affiliates like that, they don't, they don't ask for the backend there. I mean, that is pretty lucrative. A hundred percent commission. I mean, you're losing out on the merchant processing fees, you know, but that's, that's negligible.

Dave Woodward (25:10):

Yeah. So weird.

Dan Henry (25:12):

What is your number one tip or where would you look for these types of parts?

Dave Woodward (25:19):

I will always, first and foremost, I would always go to people who are using my product, consuming my product. I look at customers first.

Dan Henry (25:26):

That does make a lot of sense. Doesn't it? Yeah, because they're going to be more likely to send you real. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Yeah. All right. I see. Okay. That makes sense. And, and outside of that, like, cause we might have some people listening that are, don't have customers yet. Maybe they're a startup. And you mentioned the dream 100 strategy and you know, I'm good friends with Dana derricks and, and, and you know, I've talked about that a lot, you know, I've thought I've often thought about, you know, like, let's say I wanted to, to approach a CEO of a company and sell them corporate consulting, you know, send them a box of chocolates with a copy of my book and be like, Hey, if you read this book and you apply it to your sales team or whatever, you know, or you apply it to your, you, you add this to your company you know, I, I brainstorm about things like that.

Dan Henry (26:15):

Would you say that, you know, finding somebody that you believe stands to make, like maybe they have a popular podcast, maybe they have a popular YouTube channel, whatever? Right. But there's somebody that has an audience that would be interested in your product. They stand to gain sending them something in the mail that they would have. And I always think chocolate's right. Cause who is not going to open chocolates, you know, like everybody's like, I remember talking to Dana and you guys about sending like laptops and very expensive gifts. But I, at the end of the day, you can get gourmet chocolates for 1520 bucks and who ain't gonna, who ain't going to open chocolates. Do you know what I mean? That, that, that was a thought I had. But would you say that like sending that out to them and, and, and, and approaching them that way to get high-quality partners, would you say that's a, a good way to go about it?

Dave Woodward (27:00):

I would with one caveat and that is, I would never ever ask someone else to promote my product until I already knew my numbers.

Dan Henry (27:07):

Expand on that last question. I know I want to be respectful of your time, but when you say know your numbers, I know that the people listening right now are gonna be like, okay, what does that mean? And how do I do that?

Dave Woodward (27:17):

That I, so I would never ask someone to promote my product without having run my own Facebook traffic to it, without having done my own, either organic or having done some other things. I'm never going to ask someone else to do something I haven't already done. Especially in, in my own business. There's nothing you'll burn a bridge, fashioning, anything else? Cause the first thing now, all of a sudden you got this guy who's loves your chocolates wants to promote first. The first thing he's going to ask is, so tell me, how's it convert. If you don't know how that product converts to cold traffic and warm traffic, you're going to burn that bridge. And so I wouldn't spend the time going after dream 100 until I at least had some idea about how it, how my product converts. I need customer testimonials. This is where it goes back to the idea, as far as I'm going to work for free, I'm going to make sure I got the customer to customer testimonials. I'm gonna make sure those customers who have had success, I'm going to ask them to promote first. And I want to make sure that I know those numbers before I ever go out to dream a hundred.

Dan Henry (28:20):

Gotcha. Gotcha. So, so in other words, if you know, it costs you X to ship out, say a book or something that you're shipping out and, and you're paying a certain commission. You wouldn't want to just make up a commission because other people do it. Cause you could end up costing yourself a lot of money because if you don't know your cost of goods sold, your cost to ship, you know, all these numbers and as well, like if your AOV is 20 bucks and you know, it could be 40 or 50 and you're asking somebody to promote, they start promoting, they're not making hardly any money. And now, like you said, you've burned that bridge. So, so I guess, I guess if I were to summarize this and correct me if I'm wrong, the first step is to run your own traffic, make sure that things you make sure you understand what things are converting at before you, you bring partners on and then go after the good partners and start with your own customers.

Dan Henry (29:15):

Because they're probably also going to be the least likely to bug you about trivial things. Like when am I getting my commission and, and all this stuff, you know, I remember when I had my affiliate program, we would get daily, daily emails from affiliates. And they're like my, I, you know, I referred somebody yesterday at 11:00 PM. When do I get my commission? And I'm like, why are you emailing me? Like, why do I have this email? You know? So anyway, thank you so much, Dave. I, this and I absolutely look forward to seeing ClickFunnels continue to grow. You guys are always just breaking that ceiling and just moving up and up. And by the way, is there any, anywhere you'd like my listeners to check out to get more information on the ClickFunnels affiliate program or what you guys have to offer. I think go to clickfunnels.com or check out the one funnel away challenge at one funnel way, challenge.com. Look at that. I didn't even drop my affiliate links. I just appreciate you guys that much. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Dave. And I'll see you guys in the next episode.