Yogi Jaeger is a philosopher at the University of Vienna, specializing in the philosophy of science and biology in particular.

Are we rushing ahead into the unknown, scaring people, while also producing fake shelters for them to retreat into artificial small worlds? Are we losing our grip on the world or realizing our humanness in the mirror of AI? Will AI take our agency away? Are we willingly giving it away? Or they will extend our agency?

Passionate conversation about the philosophy of science and the non-computational and non-formalizable nature of cognition. We shed light on AI with a non-reductive naturalist torch and see the rough edges and the strange shadows it casts over society.

Project website: https://www.expandingpossibilities.org.

Personal website: http://www.johannesjaeger.eu.

Relevant papers and blog:

https://osf.io/preprints/osf/pr42k

https://arxiv.org/abs/2307.07515

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.806283/full

http://www.johannesjaeger.eu/blog/machine-metaphysics-and-the-cult-of-techno-transcendentalism.

I warmly recommend his course on the philosophy of science: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8vh-kVsYPqPVrV0m4HjZexgO6oDkgkK0

00:00:00 Intro.

00:04:56 My excitement and interests in Yogi's work. Personal: non-reductionism naturalism beats lived dualism. Professional: tech is becoming organismic.

00:08:49 Definitions, naturalizing relevance realization. Formalization, computation and framing, small/closed and large/open worlds.

00:15:55 The paradox of living in a small world is that we don't know that we are living in a small world.

00:18:07 Computational approaches do work, just not for (all) cognition. The brain evolved not to compute but to keep you alive.

00:20:12 Church-Turing-Deutsch conjecture.

00:23:04 Approximation. Can cognition be well-approximated by computation? Csaba Szepesvari's third question. Yes, but that does not mean cognition works that way.

00:26:36 Nothingbutism. Prediction and understanding, are they the same? Understanding needs to have the concepts right.

00:29:15 AGI doom only happens in the small world.

00:30:45 Philosophy and science. Any scientific test for the non-computation claim? Csaba's second question.

00:33:27 Framing precedes science.

00:35:17 Non-reductionist but non-woowoo naturalism.

00:43:08 Relevance realization: the map of map-making. Enactivism. Non-formalizability. Fragility of the organism and death. The work to exist.

00:50:55 Goal-orientation: intrinsic or extrinsic? Paperclip maximizer.

00:54:44 Far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics. Physics-free simulation vs self-manufacturing experiential systems. Immediate and pre-conceptual access to the world.

01:04:58 Biotech and AI. The value of slowing down.

01:07:47 TAME: Michael Levin's technological approach to mind everywhere.

01:18:55 LLMs and hallucinations.

01:23:05 Social media AI and recommendation systems: taking away our agency but trying to optimize for an unoptimizable goal.

01:30:34 AGI, slowing down, losing our grip on the world or realizing our humanness in the mirror of AI?

01:39:30 Intelligence and rationality.

01:41:58 Yogi's journey: a natural philosopher, a biologist using philosophical approaches.

01:48:15 Where do I want to see AI going? Yogi's question to me.

I, scientist blog: https://balazskegl.substack.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/balazskegl

Artwork: DALL-E

Music: Bea Palya https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBDp3qcFZdU1yoWIRpMSaZw

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Corrections: The Podcast - Volume XCVI (Episode 149)