Kent Anderson DVC at Newcastle joins us soon after a 2 year spell in Ministers' Tehan and Tudge's office guiding recent policy changes. He comments on the divide between chancelleries and ministry that has developed in recent years. He puts it down to the challenge of listening and who is in charge of the sandpit. The traverse of the landscape of policy changes concludes with an astute assessment of strategy options for those that listen best, and read the tea leaves quickest. This may come from those among the 40 universities with very different starting points and contexts, or from private providers, or the Edtech sector.