EP: 389 Where Heaven Meets Earth with NT Wright

14 snips

Jan 13, 2026

N.T. Wright, a renowned New Testament scholar and former Bishop of Durham, dives into the cosmic themes of Ephesians in this insightful discussion. He argues that the gospel's goal is to unite heaven and earth rather than promote escapism. Wright critiques modern supernatural language and emphasizes believers' position at the intersection of both realms. He highlights the significance of the armor of God, and the church's role as defenders of faith amidst spiritual resistance. This enlightening conversation challenges traditional views on biblical eschatology and the power of proclamation.

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INSIGHT

Heaven And Earth Are One Creation

N.T. Wright rejects the naturalism vs supernaturalism split and resists Platonic separation of heaven and earth.
He frames heaven and earth as interlocking parts of one creation, not separate realms to escape to.

INSIGHT

Ephesians Shows The Cosmic Goal

Wright calls Ephesians the "room with a view" that summarizes Paul's theology in big picture terms.
Paul presents God's plan as summing up everything in heaven and on earth in the Messiah, not extracting humans to heaven.

INSIGHT

Western Escapism Has Philosophical Roots

Wright traces Western escapism to Epicurean and Enlightenment thought that pushed God far away.
He emphasizes Revelation's vision of God dwelling with humans and the new Jerusalem coming down to earth.

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What if the entire goal of the gospel isn't to escape earth but to bring heaven crashing into it? One of the greatest living theologians, author of over 80 books, former Bishop of Durham, and a scholar whose work has shaped how millions understand Paul and the early church, N.T. Wright sat down with us to talk about his new book, The Vision of Ephesians. We delve deeply into Paul's letter to Ephesus, which is filled with the kind of cosmic, spiritual warfare content that most churches tend to gloss over. Tom walks us through what it actually means to be "seated in heavenly places" while simultaneously engaged in battle against principalities and powers. We talk demons, the rapture, and the weird stuff in Scripture that most pastors skip over. He explains why the armor of God is mostly defensive—and why the one offensive weapon, the sword of the Spirit, isn't the Bible as we think of it, but the announced word that Jesus is Lord.
As we further explore Ephesians, Wright contends that Paul's letter is the "room with a view" in his writings—a place where you can stand back and see the whole cosmic picture of what God is doing. And that picture isn't about escaping earth for heaven. It's about heaven and earth crashing together, with Jesus at the center and his people caught up in the collision. Tom traces how ancient philosophy and Enlightenment thinking convinced the Western church that God is far away and our job is to wait for extraction—and why that reading makes nonsense of Genesis, the Sermon on the Mount, and Revelation.
But this conversation isn't just theological theory. Tom opens up about personal encounters with spiritual warfare, including the time every fire alarm in the building went off the moment he stood up to lecture on Ephesians 6. He shares stories from his years overseeing diocesan exorcists as Bishop of Durham, the C.S. Lewis passage that shaped his understanding of spiritual resistance, and why both ignoring the demonic and seeing demons behind every bush are dangerous mistakes. We also get into his thoughts on the rapture and how Jesus redefined power itself through the cross. This is a masterclass in biblical theology from a living legend.

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