56: What Is It Like To Be A Bat by Thomas Nagel

Sep 25, 2018

Dive into the intriguing world of consciousness as the hosts explore Thomas Nagel's thought-provoking essay on subjective experience. They tackle the mind-body problem, pondering the limits of physicalism while discussing empathy across perspectives. Topics range from consciousness in animals and the ethical quandaries of artificial intelligence to media biases and the complexities of interpretation in a polarized world. Plus, hear reflections on cultural practices and the inspiring commitment of a soldier who continued his duties for decades.

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Intro

00:00 • 3min

Understanding Subjectivity: Insights from Nagel

02:45 • 16min

Navigating Media Bias and Political Polarization

18:18 • 9min

Exploring Consciousness Across Species

27:14 • 6min

Consciousness, Ethics, and AI

33:02 • 15min

Exploring Knowledge and Consciousness: A Philosophical Tangent

48:24 • 3min

Cultural Beverages and Their Impact

51:15 • 4min

Reflection on Hiroo Onoda's Unwavering Commitment

54:47 • 2min

Influence and Engagement

57:15 • 4min

Homo Deus

A Brief History of Tomorrow

Yuval Noah Harari

In 'Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow', Yuval Noah Harari examines the future of humanity, predicting that in the 21st century, humans will strive for happiness, immortality, and god-like powers. The book discusses how technological developments, such as artificial intelligence and genetic engineering, will shape human society. Harari speculates on the possibilities of overcoming death, creating artificial life, and the potential risks and philosophical implications of these advancements. He also explores the impact of humanism, individualism, and transhumanism on our future and questions the continued dominance of humans in a world increasingly driven by data and algorithms.

The Way of Zen

Penguin Books Staff

This book by Alan W. Watts provides a detailed introduction to Zen Buddhism, tracing its origins from Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism. Watts explains the basic principles and practices of Zen, such as direct experience, 'no-mind', and the importance of the present moment. The book also delves into the application of Zen in various arts like haiku, calligraphy, and archery, highlighting how Zen permeates different aspects of life. It contrasts Eastern thought with Western philosophy, emphasizing spontaneity, non-graspingness, and calmness of mind. The author's approach is respectful and informative, making it a strong introduction to Zen for Western readers.

Darwin's Dangerous Idea

Evolution and the Meanings of Life

Daniel C. Dennett

In 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea', Daniel C. Dennett defends and expands upon Darwin's theory of evolution, describing natural selection as a mindless, mechanical, and algorithmic process. Dennett argues that this 'dangerous idea' challenges traditional views of design and purpose, suggesting that complex life forms can arise without the need for a designer. He critiques various philosophical and scientific theories, including those of Noam Chomsky, Stephen Jay Gould, and Roger Penrose, and discusses the implications of evolutionary thinking on ethics, morality, and human culture. The book also introduces concepts such as 'skyhooks' and 'cranes' to explain resistance to Darwinism and the role of memes in cultural evolution.

What Is It Like to Be a Bat?

Thomas Nagel

Thomas Nagel's essay "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" is a seminal work in philosophy of mind. It explores the subjective nature of consciousness and the challenges of understanding other minds. Nagel argues that even with complete physical knowledge of a bat's brain, we cannot fully grasp its subjective experience. This essay highlights the limitations of reductionist approaches to consciousness. It continues to be a central text in discussions about qualia, subjective experience, and the mind-body problem.

The Man in the High Castle

Michelle Charrier

Philip K. Dick

Published in 1962, 'The Man in the High Castle' is set in a world where Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany emerged victorious from World War II. The novel follows multiple characters, including Robert Childan, who runs an antique shop in San Francisco specializing in pre-war American artifacts, and Juliana Frink, who becomes involved with a mysterious novel called 'The Grasshopper Lies Heavy', which presents an alternate history where the Allies won the war. The story delves into themes of resistance, cultural identity, and the exploration of different historical outcomes[1][4].

Sapiens

A Brief History of Humankind

Yuval Noah Harari

This book surveys the history of humankind from the Stone Age to the 21st century, focusing on Homo sapiens. It divides human history into four major parts: the Cognitive Revolution, the Agricultural Revolution, the Unification of Humankind, and the Scientific Revolution. Harari argues that Homo sapiens dominate the world due to their unique ability to cooperate in large numbers through beliefs in imagined realities such as gods, nations, money, and human rights. The book also examines the impact of human activities on the global ecosystem and speculates on the future of humanity, including the potential for genetic engineering and non-organic life.

The Beginning of Infinity

Explanations That Transform the World

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In this groundbreaking book, David Deutsch argues that explanations have a fundamental place in the universe and that improving them is the basic regulating principle of all successful human endeavor. The book takes readers on a journey through various fields of science, history of civilization, art, moral values, and the theory of political institutions. Deutsch explains how we form new explanations and drop bad ones, and discusses the conditions under which progress, which he argues is potentially boundless, can and cannot happen. He emphasizes the importance of good explanations, which he defines as those that are 'hard to vary' and have 'reach', and argues that these explanations are central to the Enlightenment way of thinking and to all scientific and philosophical progress.

Trust Me, I'm Lying

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Ryan Holiday

In 'Trust Me, I'm Lying,' Ryan Holiday exposes the inner workings of the online media system, detailing how rumors and false information can quickly spread from low-level blogs to major news outlets. The book highlights the role of marketers and media manipulators in this process, driven by the toxic economics of the news business. Holiday shares his own experiences as a media manipulator and provides insights into the social science behind why this system is so vulnerable to manipulation. He also offers advice on how to spot and combat these manipulative tactics[1][3][5].

The Elephant in the Brain

null

Kevin Simler and Robin Hanson

Gödel, Escher, Bach

An Eternal Golden Braid

Douglas Hofstadter

This book by Douglas Hofstadter is a comprehensive and interdisciplinary work that explores the interrelated ideas of Kurt Gödel, M.C. Escher, and Johann Sebastian Bach. It delves into concepts such as self-reference, recursion, and the limits of formal systems, particularly through Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. The book uses dialogues between fictional characters, including Achilles and the Tortoise, to intuitively present complex ideas before they are formally explained. It covers a wide range of topics including cognitive science, artificial intelligence, number theory, and the philosophy of mind, aiming to understand how consciousness and intelligence emerge from formal systems[2][4][5].

How to lie with statistics

IRVING HUFF DARRELL with illustrations by GEIS

Darrell Huff

Irving Geis

Bryan Depuy

In 'How to Lie with Statistics', Darrell Huff provides an engaging introduction to the ways statistics can be manipulated or misinterpreted. The book covers topics such as biased sampling, misleading averages, and the manipulation of graphs. It serves as a practical guide for readers to critically evaluate statistical information.

“A Martian scientist with no understanding of visual perception could understand the rainbow, or lightning, or clouds as physical phenomena, though he would never be able to understand the human concepts of rainbow, lighting, or cloud, or the place these things occupy in our phenomenal world.”

In this episode of Made You Think, Neil and Nat critically discuss the article What Is It Like to Be a Bat? by Thomas Nagel. This is the most famous piece on the mind-body problem. In it Nagel explores the mind-body issue, freedom, knowledge, meaning and value of human life. This article was penned down at an era where physicalism and materialism were prevalent, the idea that you can reduce all aspects of the mind to simply firings in the brain. However, Nagel was unpersuaded that physicalism of materialism gives an all-encompassing account of human experience.

“Without consciousness the mind-body problem would be much less interesting with consciousness it seems hopeless.”

We cover a wide range of topics, including

The mind-body consciousness problem
Creating an objective interpretations of reality.
Learning skills to overcome reporters biases
Consciousness in animals
Artificial intelligence (AI) and hacking of consciousness

And much more. Please enjoy, and be sure to grab a copy of What Is It Like to Be a Bat? by Thomas Nagel!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our book episodes on consciousness like Godel Escher Bach by Douglas Hofstadter, Sapiens by Yuval Harari, Darwin’s Dangerous Idea by Daniel Dennett, and The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch.

Be sure to join our mailing list to find out about what books are coming up, giveaways we're running, special events, and more.

Links from the Episode Mentioned in the show

The Beginning of Infinity on Wikipedia [04:52] (book episode)
Pod Save America Podcast [19:20]
HARO Help A Reporter Out [22:14]
Fox News [23:30]
CNBC [23:30]
Turing Test [30:53]
Chinese Room [31:13]
Chess [32:00]
Go game [32:40]
Watson AI [39:53]
Joe Rogan interviews Elon Musk [47:34]
The Man in the High Castle Television TV series [54:08]
Hardcore History ep 62 – Supernova in the East I [54:42]

Books mentioned

What it is to be like a bat? By Thomas Nagel
Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter [00:39] (Nat’s notes) (book episode)
Way of Zen by Alan Watts [01:02] (Nat’s notes) (Neil’s notes) (book episode)
Homo Deus by Yuval Harari [01:06] (Nat’s notes) (book episode)
Darwin’s Dangerous Idea by Daniel Dennett [1:11] (book episode)
The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch [01:16] (book episode)
The Riddle of the Gun by Sam Harris [16:53] (article episode)
How to Lie with Statistics by Darrell Huff [24:30]
The Elephant in the Brain by Kevin Simler and Robin Hanson [36:08] (Neil’s notes)
Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari [56:40] (Nat’s notes) (book episode part 1 & part 2)
Trust Me, I'm Lying by Ryan Holiday [23:01]
The Man in the High Castle Novel by Philip K. Dick [54:08]
Plato's Republic [20:10]

People mentioned

David Deutsch [05:25] (Infinity episode)
Daniel Dennett [08:25] (Darwin’s episode)
Bobby McMullen – Blind Bike Rider [09:44]
Donald Trump [12:23]
Charles Darwin [30:15]
Pepper the Poochon [33:40]
Sam Harris [37:19] (Guns episode)
Yuval Noah Harari [37:19]
Douglas Hofstadter [43:36]
Nick Bostrom [43:53]
Karl Marx [46:02]
Elon Musk [47:34] (on this podcast)
Hiroo Onoda [55:17]

Show Topics

01:00 – Consciousness. The article is about the theory of mind and consciousness, looking into the mind-body problem. Aspects of the mind can be linked to how the brain responds.

01:58 – Challenge to physicalism rather than refute reductionism. Reductionism and physicalism cannot be fully understood; thus, making these two theories flawed.

“Every reductionist has his favorite analogy for modern science. It is most unlikely that any of these unrelated examples of successful reduction will shed light on the relation of mind to brain”. Nagel seems not to refute reductionism but rather exposing a big whole in it and saying you can't take reductionism seriously until you fill this hole.

03:43 – Mind-body consciousness problem. Without consciousness the mind-body problem would be much less interesting with consciousness it seems hopeless. “It seems unlikely that any physical theory of mind can be contemplated until more thought has been given to the general problem of subjective and objective”.

05:27 – All problems are soluble given enough intelligence in time.

06:08 – Subjective filter for any information. Physicalism and reductionism create an objective interpretation of reality. Physicalism and reductionism in some ways rely on creating an objective interpretation of reality. All the thoughts human beings have are grounded from the subjective view of the world.

08:00 – Humans cannot understand a “what it is like aspect” because they are not in that very situation. A bat was used to demonstrate this concept. Human beings cannot comprehend how a bat moves and survives by echo-location thus this highlights human cannot understand subjective experience from human data.

09:04 – Humans can learn to echo-locate. An excellent example is Bobby McMullen, who is a blind mountain biker; he uses echolocation and his senses to mountain bike.

10:14 – However, according to Nagel, even if a human could echo-locate, that is still not equivalent to how bats echo-locate.

10:35 – Subjective interpretation of reality cannot be stepped out. This means something outside of one’s understanding cannot be fully grasped or comprehended. This concept applies to understand to someone who is totally different from you. You can never know exactly what they went through or understand what they do why they do some things; it is easy to judge someone thinking they are making irrational actions without viewing their actions from the subjective experience.

12:12 – How would look post-Trump era discussions. Urban Democrats have different interests and value systems than rural Republicans. Where to draw the line for life? Understanding pro-life people. Pro-gunners point of view. Having a gun in Texas is a must.

18:28 – Divided political sphere. Humans choose a side that will agree with their preconceived opinions.

19:58 – Decentralization makes it really hard to create a cohesive story and narrative for a population.

20:20 – Gell-Mann amnesia effect. Phenomenon where one will believe about something they know not about because it has been reported. Journalists are almost never trained to actually understand what they are reporting on, not confirming the authenticity of their sources and misunderstanding statistics.

24:00 – Learning how to read research articles is an important skill these days as we can't rely on media anymore. Famous bad reporters interpretations. Bacon is bad for you as smoking. Coconut oil is bad because saturated fats.

26:26 – Hanlon's Razor. Applying that to even news reporters, they are not doing it necessarily maliciously, they are doing it for one of two reasons- it works, people click on it and read it; the second thing is a lot of these sites are effectively content firms. This circles up to what Nagel is saying about subjective character of experience which we cannot step outside of and not understanding what it is like to be someone else.

28:20 – Test for consciousness. Mirror test for animal self awareness.

30:38 – AI discussion. What means a computer is conscious? Turing test is not enough. Reaching intelligence by brute force. Computers that don't want to play chess.

33:33 – Consciousness in animals. Every animal has a level of consciousness and awareness in the same fundamental way a human does. Dogs dreaming.

35:30 – The self is not necessarily an actual thing. Nagel is trying to keep the sense of self and the potential challenge to him is this thing you are trying to hold on to the mind, the sense of self is an illusion; there is not really anything special for what we think about this consciousness.

37:47 – Challenging reductionism. Nagel is challenging reductionism by pushing for a more helpful theory of mind that says it’s all mental- making it hard to comprehend any one’s mind.

38:43 – Subjective phenomena cannot be explained. Questions that arise with a conscious AI: can you unplug it? Can you reset it? Is it a slave? Riding horses and animals that work for humans.

40:26 – Artificial intelligence (AI) and consciousness. That will just reach a point where it is so competent that it is indistinguishable from interacting with another human.

43:05 – AI scare. An AI is sufficiently intelligent to be a threat to us all, it is sufficiently intelligent to know it shouldn't let us know it exists. AI that optimizes for paperclips can destroy the world.

43:38 – Use of the term is. E = mc2. Knowing that something is true without necessarily understanding why it is true. Consciousness and intelligence exist within its closed system.

50:10 – Knowledge is a justified true belief, based on theoretical understanding.

“You can know that something is something without understanding what it means for it to be that thing.”

53:41 – Tangent. Japanese soldiers fighting after the war was over.

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