As a writer who focuses on technology and as AI Editor for The Financial Times, Madhumita Murgia has been unable to ignore the increasing reach of AI into the infrastructure that helps run our societies. It's the subject of her new book, Code Dependent, a study of how technology and AI often designed with idealistic intent is beginning to have a significant effect on real people's lives and not always for the better. Joining Murgia in conversation for this episode is Carl Miller, co-founder of the Centre for the Analysis of Social Media at the think tank Demos and author of The Death of the Gods: The New Global Power Grab.

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