The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie Can the ACLU Serve Progressives, Libertarians, and Conservatives?
Oct 15, 2025
In this engaging discussion, Ben Wizner, the ACLU's Deputy Legal Director and a key figure in civil liberties litigation, delves into the chilling effects of Trump’s second term on free speech. He compares today’s censorship climate to historical events like McCarthyism. Wizner highlights the ACLU's commitment to defending unpopular speech, including its controversial support for the NRA. They also explore the ongoing challenges of surveillance reform and the impact of whistleblowers like Edward Snowden, bringing a crucial perspective on civil liberties in today's political landscape.
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Modern McCarthyism On Free Speech
- Ben Wizner compares Trump's free-speech tactics to McCarthyism and the Palmer raids, noting use of state power to enforce ideological conformity.
- He highlights deportations, coercing institutions, and targeting lawyers as modern echoes of those earlier crackdowns.
Jawboning Vs. Full-State Coercion
- Wizner distinguishes scale: Biden jawboning social media raised concerns but didn't mobilize every lever of government power like Trump's actions.
- He warns against governments indirectly achieving censorship via pressure on platforms and regulators.
High Legal Protections, More Violations
- Wizner notes a paradox: legal doctrine offers strong First Amendment protections while actual violations are rising.
- He emphasizes courts must be used to enforce rights, not change doctrine alone.
