The Insight: Conversations – Credit Picker’s Market with Wayne Dahl, Robert O’Leary, and Mark Jacobs
Oct 5, 2023
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Wayne Dahl, Robert O’Leary, and Mark Jacobs discuss topics from Oaktree's Quarterly Letters, including navigating the interest rate environment, attractive sectors for credit investors, misconceptions about the real estate market, and more.
Credit investors have been successful in navigating the volatile interest rate environment by focusing on credit selection and low duration or floating-rate coupons.
Companies with material amounts of floating-rate debt and secular industry issues are particularly vulnerable in the opportunistic credit market.
Deep dives
Shifting Yield Curve and Investor Expectations
The podcast discusses the recent shifts in the yield curve and their implications for investor expectations. The speaker highlights the difficulty of accurately forecasting interest rates and inflation. The market has experienced significant fluctuations in interest rate expectations throughout the year, leading to a shift towards the belief that interest rates will remain higher for longer. Despite the volatile interest rate environment, high yield bonds have performed well, outperforming treasury securities. Credit selection and a focus on low duration or floating-rate coupons have been key in positioning credit investors for success. However, there is a potential for increased stress in certain pockets of the credit markets if interest rates continue to stay higher for longer.
Opportunistic Credit Landscape
The podcast explores the changes in the opportunistic credit landscape. The speaker defines opportunistic credit as financing accessed by companies that are unable to obtain syndicated financing due to various limitations or challenges. There has been a greater sense of urgency among borrowers, driven by liquidity concerns and upcoming debt maturities. The speaker expects a significant maturity wall in 2025 and 2026, leading to increased focus on refinancing and liquidity. Companies with material amounts of floating-rate debt, coupled with secular industry issues, are particularly vulnerable in this environment. The deterioration of interest coverage ratios and deteriorating recoveries further contribute to potential distress. The speaker emphasizes the importance of risk control and being able to navigate the diverse opportunities that arise in the opportunistic credit market.
Opportunities and Challenges in Real Estate
The podcast highlights opportunities and challenges in the real estate market. While the macroeconomic backdrop has been challenging, there are considerable variations in performance, liquidity, and supply-demand fundamentals across different real estate sectors and markets. The industrial sector has outperformed due to the increase in e-commerce sales, retooling of the global supply chain, and overall economic growth. However, there is a potential divergence emerging, with demand moderating outside coastal markets and elevated supply in the middle part of the country. The speaker emphasizes the importance of risk control, focusing on high-quality assets in strong markets that offer attractive buying opportunities. Additionally, the speaker notes the antiquated process of measuring shelter costs in the calculation of CPI, which may not accurately reflect the current moderation in rents and the cost of owning a home.
How have credit investors been successfully navigating the volatile interest rate environment? Which sectors currently look attractive to opportunistic credit investors? What are some of the major misconceptions about today’s commercial real estate market? In this episode of The Insight: Conversations, Wayne Dahl (Assistant Portfolio Manager, Global Credit), Robert O’Leary (Portfolio Manager, Global Opportunities), and Mark Jacobs (Co-Portfolio Manager, Real Estate Income) discuss topics from the September edition of The Roundup: Top Takeaways from Oaktree’s Quarterly Letters(https://www.oaktreecapital.com/insights/insight-commentary/market-commentary/the-roundup-top-takeaways-from-oaktrees-quarterly-letters-september-2023-edition) and explain what it means to be in a credit picker’s market.
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