#67 – David Chalmers on the nature and ethics of consciousness

Dec 16, 2019

Guest

Arden Koehler

Guest

David Chalmers

David Chalmers, a leading philosopher on consciousness, and Arden Koehler, an ethics PhD student, explore the nature of conscious experience. Chalmers introduces the mind-bending concept of 'philosophical zombies' to question moral status. They discuss the trolley problem involving conscious humans and non-conscious zombies, sparking a debate over what qualifies beings for moral consideration. The duo also dives into the ethics of AI consciousness and the implications of virtual reality, challenging listeners to rethink reality, ethics, and our responsibilities towards all forms of consciousness.

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INSIGHT

Philosophical Disagreement

Philosophers disagree on many topics, like aesthetic value objectivity and the analytic/synthetic distinction.
Their predictions about others' views are often inaccurate, revealing flawed sociological beliefs.

ANECDOTE

Surprising Survey Result

The survey revealed surprising results, like a plurality favoring objective aesthetic value.
Chalmers and Arden Kohler were both surprised by this outcome.

ADVICE

Embrace Disagreement

Philosophy excels as an incubator for new disciplines, spinning off areas where agreement and progress emerge.
Philosophers should focus on exploring diverse ideas, even if unconventional, rather than solely seeking consensus.

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Anarchy, State, and Utopia

Robert Nozick

In 'Anarchy, State, and Utopia', Robert Nozick presents a rigorous argument in favor of a minimal state, limited to the narrow functions of protection against force, theft, fraud, and the enforcement of contracts. He critiques more extensive state activities as violations of individual rights and argues against more extreme views such as anarcho-capitalism. Nozick's work is influenced by John Locke, Immanuel Kant, and Friedrich Hayek, and it includes a theory of rights, a critique of John Rawls' 'A Theory of Justice', and a model of utopia. The book is a foundational text of libertarian thought and has been widely acclaimed for its philosophical richness and analytical argumentation[1][2][5].

The end of science

Facing the Limits of Knowledge in the Twilight of the Scientific Age

John Horgan

In 'The End of Science,' John Horgan discusses the idea that science may be nearing its theoretical limits. He interviews various eminent scholars, including Fred Hoyle, Noam Chomsky, and John Wheeler, to explore topics such as God, superstrings, quarks, consciousness, and the Omega Point. Horgan argues that science is facing significant challenges, including the constraints imposed by special relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos theory. He also critiques the trend of 'ironic science,' where theoreticians engage in speculative and often untestable theories, potentially reducing science to a status akin to literary criticism. The book presents a contrarian view on the future of scientific discovery and its place in the hierarchy of disciplines[1][3][4].

What Is It Like to Be a Bat?

Thomas Nagel

Thomas Nagel's essay "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" is a seminal work in philosophy of mind. It explores the subjective nature of consciousness and the challenges of understanding other minds. Nagel argues that even with complete physical knowledge of a bat's brain, we cannot fully grasp its subjective experience. This essay highlights the limitations of reductionist approaches to consciousness. It continues to be a central text in discussions about qualia, subjective experience, and the mind-body problem.

Illusionism

Dan Dennett

combination problem

William James

Reality+

Virtual Worlds and the Problems of Philosophy

David Chalmers

In 'Reality+: Virtual Worlds and the Problems of Philosophy', David J. Chalmers conducts a comprehensive analysis of the intersection between virtual reality, philosophy, and science. He argues that virtual worlds are not inferior to physical reality and that we can lead meaningful lives within them. The book addresses various philosophical questions, such as the nature of reality, the relation between mind and body, and the possibility of being in a simulated world. Chalmers uses virtual reality technology to offer new perspectives on long-standing philosophical issues, making the book a significant contribution to the fields of philosophy, science, and technology.

Deep Utopia

None

Nick Bostrom

Liv Bowery

AI and the Future of GRC

Anthony Stevens

The possibility of ultra-intelligent machines

I.J. Good

On the Absence of Phenomenology

Dan Dennett

Quining Qualia

Daniel C. Dennett

In 'Quining Qualia', Daniel C. Dennett challenges the concept of qualia, arguing that they are not necessary for understanding conscious experience. He provides an alternative framework for discussing perception and consciousness without relying on qualia. This chapter is part of the book 'Readings in Philosophy and Cognitive Science', edited by Alvin I. Goldman.

Qualitative Consciousness: Themes from the Philosophy of David Rosenthal

Exploring Higher-Order Thought and Quality-Space Theories

David M. Rosenthal

Josh Weisberg

This book delves into David Rosenthal's influential theories on consciousness, including the higher-order thought theory and the quality-space theory. It brings together top scholars to develop, critique, and expand upon these themes, offering insights into qualitative consciousness.

Mary's Room Thought Experiment

A Philosophical Argument Against Physicalism

Frank Jackson

Frank Jackson's 'Mary's Room' thought experiment challenges physicalism by positing a scientist who knows all physical facts about color but lacks subjective experience. It questions whether physical knowledge is sufficient to explain consciousness and subjective experiences.

Superintelligence

Paths, Dangers, Strategies

Nick Bostrom

In this book, Nick Bostrom delves into the implications of creating superintelligence, which could surpass human intelligence in all domains. He discusses the potential dangers, such as the loss of human control over such powerful entities, and presents various strategies to ensure that superintelligences align with human values. The book examines the 'AI control problem' and the need to endow future machine intelligence with positive values to prevent existential risks[3][5][4].

Integrated information theory

Giulio Tononi

The Conscious Mind

In Search of a Fundamental Theory

David Chalmers

Reasons and Persons

Derek Parfit

Derek Parfit's "Reasons and Persons" is a landmark work in contemporary philosophy, profoundly impacting discussions on personal identity, ethics, and rationality. Parfit challenges traditional notions of the self, arguing that our sense of personal identity is less coherent than we assume. He explores the implications of this for our moral obligations, particularly concerning future generations. The book delves into the complexities of decision-making under uncertainty, examining how we should weigh our present interests against the potential consequences of our actions for the future. Parfit's rigorous analysis and thought-provoking arguments have had a lasting influence on various fields, including ethics, political philosophy, and decision theory. His work continues to stimulate debate and inspire new research.

What is it like to be you right now? You're seeing this text on the screen, smelling the coffee next to you, and feeling the warmth of the cup. There’s a lot going on in your head — your conscious experience.

Now imagine beings that are identical to humans, but for one thing: they lack this conscious experience. If you spill your coffee on them, they’ll jump like anyone else, but inside they'll feel no pain and have no thoughts: the lights are off.

The concept of these so-called 'philosophical zombies' was popularised by today’s guest — celebrated philosophy professor David Chalmers — in order to explore the nature of consciousness. In a forthcoming book he poses a classic 'trolley problem':

"Suppose you have a conscious human on one train track, and five non-conscious humanoid zombies on another. If you do nothing, a trolley will hit and kill the conscious human. If you flip a switch to redirect the trolley, you can save the conscious human, but in so doing kill the five non-conscious humanoid zombies. What should you do?"

Many people think you should divert the trolley, precisely because the lack of conscious experience means the moral status of the zombies is much reduced or absent entirely.

So, which features of consciousness qualify someone for moral consideration? One view is that the only conscious states that matter are those that have a positive or negative quality, like pleasure and suffering. But Dave’s intuitions are quite different.

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Instead of zombies he asks us to consider 'Vulcans', who can see and hear and reflect on the world around them, but are incapable of experiencing pleasure or pain.

Now imagine a further trolley problem: suppose you have a normal human on one track, and five Vulcans on the other. Should you divert the trolley to kill the five Vulcans in order to save the human?

Dave firmly believes the answer is no, and if he's right, pleasure and suffering can’t be the only things required for moral status. The fact that Vulcans are conscious in other ways must matter in itself.

Dave is one of the world's top experts on the philosophy of consciousness. He helped return the question 'what is consciousness?' to the centre stage of philosophy with his 1996 book 'The Conscious Mind', which argued against then-dominant materialist theories of consciousness.

This comprehensive interview, at over four hours long, outlines each contemporary theory of consciousness, what they have going for them, and their likely ethical implications. Those theories span the full range from illusionism, the idea that consciousness is in some sense an 'illusion', to panpsychism, according to which it's a fundamental physical property present in all matter.

These questions are absolutely central for anyone who wants to build a positive future. If insects were conscious our treatment of them could already be an atrocity. If computer simulations of people will one day be conscious, how will we know, and how should we treat them? And what is it about consciousness that matters, if anything?

Dave Chalmers is probably the best person on the planet to ask these questions, and Rob & Arden cover this and much more over the course of what is both our longest ever episode, and our personal favourite so far.

Chapters:

Rob's intro (00:00:00)
The interview begins (00:02:11)
Philosopher’s survey (00:06:37)
Free will (00:13:37)
Survey correlations (00:20:06)
Progress in philosophy (00:35:01)
Simulations (00:51:30)
The problem of consciousness (01:13:01)
Dualism and panpsychism (01:26:52)
Is consciousness an illusion? (01:34:52)
Idealism (01:43:13)
Integrated information theory (01:51:08)
Moral status and consciousness (02:06:10)
Higher order views of consciousness (02:11:46)
The views of philosophers on eating meat (02:20:23)
Artificial consciousness (02:34:25)
The zombie and vulcan trolley problems (02:38:43)
Illusionism and moral status (02:56:12)
Panpsychism and moral status (03:06:19)
Mind uploading (03:15:58)
Personal identity (03:22:51)
Virtual reality and the experience machine (03:28:56)
Singularity (03:42:44)
AI alignment (04:07:39)
Careers in academia (04:23:37)
Having fun disagreements (04:32:54)
Rob’s outro (04:42:14)

Producer: Keiran Harris.