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• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.
• The Software Engineer’s Guidebook: Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as well.
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How do you get product and engineering to truly operate as one team? Today, I’m joined by Ebi Atawodi, Director of Product Management at YouTube Studio, and a former product leader at Netflix and Uber.
Ebi was the first PM I partnered with after stepping into engineering management at Uber, and we both learned a lot together. We share lessons from our time at Uber and discuss how strong product-engineering partnerships drive better outcomes, grow teams, foster cultures of ownership, and unlock agency, innovation, and trust.
In this episode, we cover:
• Why you need to earn a new team's trust before trying to drive change
• How practices like the "business scorecard" and “State of the Union” updates helped communicate business goals and impact to teams at Uber
• How understanding business impact leads to more ideas and collaboration
• A case for getting to know your team as people, not just employees
• Why junior employees should have a conversation with a recruiter every six months
• Ebi’s approach to solving small problems with the bet that they’ll unlock larger, more impactful solutions
• Why investing time in trust and connection isn't at odds with efficiency
• The qualities of the best engineers—and why they’re the same traits that make people successful in any role
• The three-pronged definition of product: business impact, feasibility, and customer experience
• Why you should treat your career as a project
• And more!
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Timestamps
(00:00) Intro
(02:19) The product review where Gergely first met Ebi
(05:45) Ebi’s learning about earning trust before being direct
(08:01) The value of tying everything to business impact
(11:53) What meetings looked like at Uber before Ebi joined
(12:35) How Ebi’s influence created more of a start-up environment
(15:12) An overview of “State of the Union”
(18:06) How Ebi helped the cash team secure headcount
(24:10) How a dinner out helped Ebi and Gergely work better together
(28:11) Why good leaders help their employees reach their full potential
(30:24) Product-minded engineers and the value of trust
(33:04) Ebi’s approach to passion in work: loving the problem, the work, and the people
(36:00) How Gergely and Ebi secretly bootstrapped a project then asked for headcount
(36:55) How a real problem led to a novel solution that also led to a policy change
(40:30) Ebi’s approach to solving problems and tying them to a bigger value unlock
(43:58) How Ebi developed her playbooks for vision setting, fundraising, and more
(45:59) Why Gergely prioritized meeting people on his trips to San Francisco
(46:50) A case for making in-person interactions more about connection
(50:44) The genius-jerk archetype vs. brilliant people who struggle with social skills
(52:48) The traits of the best engineers—and why they apply to other roles, too
(1:03:27) Why product leaders need to love the product and the business
(1:06:54) The value of a good PM
(1:08:05) Sponsorship vs. mentorship and treating your career like a project
(1:11:50) A case for playing the long game
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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:
• The product-minded software engineer
• Working with Product Managers as an Engineering Manager or Engineer
• Working with Product Managers: advice from PMs
• What is Growth Engineering?
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See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast
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