Join us in this exciting episode of Basecamp where we welcome esteemed guest, Malcolm and evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller. The conversation dives deep into the challenges of the modern dating market, the impact of dating apps, and the shifting norms on college campuses. Jeffrey shares intriguing insights from his experiences with university students, his thoughts on cultural and societal impacts on dating, and offers practical advice for parents on how to support their children in finding long-term partners. The discussion also touches on the future implications of AI in romantic relationships and the importance of maintaining close family ties. Don’t miss it!

Geoffrey Miller: [00:00:00] I've done polls of my, my undergraduate males in my sexuality classes, anonymous polls, right?

Mm-hmm. Through iClicker and stuff. Mm-hmm. Would you ever date a female student? Would you ever date a female student that you meet on campus about two thirds? Say absolutely not. Two, a third,

Simone Collins: what's the point of gonna go, oh my gosh, I, I know. And

Geoffrey Miller: then, right. So they're terrified, right?

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hello everyone. I'm. So excited to see all of you here today because today I have both Malcolm and Jeffrey Miller on the podcast. This is really exciting because one, we admire his work a lot. Jeffrey Miller is an American evolutionary psychologist. He's also an author and associate professor of psychology at the University of New Mexico, where he teaches a course on human sexuality.

Among other things, he's also mixing with university students who are in the thick of dating, which is what we're gonna be talking about today. Dating markets are broken. What do we do to fix him? How can people find a partner if they actually want one? So we're really excited to get into this. Welcome to [00:01:00] Basecamp, Jeffrey.

Geoffrey Miller: It's great to be here and great to see you guys again.

Malcolm Collins: Great. And I wanna know that this isn't just like if you're a young person and you're like, oh, I'm interested in this for me this is also gonna be highly useful to parents. Oh yeah. Because any parent right now who wants their line to continue, one of the biggest challenges you're gonna have to overcome is how do you secure a partner?

How do your children secure a partner within this corrupted market right now?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. It's bad. It's dire. What are you seeing out there, Jeffrey? Like, do your students talk to you about dating at all or are they like, I'm not not gonna go there, or they're not dating? Yeah.

Geoffrey Miller: Well, they, they wanna be dating, you know, the guys want girlfriends, the, the women want boyfriends.

And I actually have a daughter who's 29 and, you know, active in the dating scene. And we talk a lot about what it's like out there. I talk a lot about. The current dating apps and their failures and their frustrations with my students. We have, you know, long discussions both in my human sexuality class, and I also [00:02:00] teach a course on effective altruism.

I teach courses on human emotions and motivations and, yeah, I've even taught a course on alternative relationships. It covers all kinds of unusual things, including, including traditional Christian monogamous marriage as, as an alternative relationship.

Simone Collins: So is though what, so we get this impression sometimes that younger generations are, in some ways moving in a more tra direction because they're like.

Malcolm Collins: All the other stuff actually. Are you seeing this, this trad movement within your students?

Simone Collins: Are you seeing it or is it just not?

Geoffrey Miller: I mean, what, and here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, everything is a little bit behind the curve. I mean, we're not in Brooklyn, we're not the Bay Area. So stuff comes here five years later, you know, after, after it goes everywhere else.

But I certainly see an interest in, huh. Getting serious about finding a long-term mate and people [00:03:00] talking about demographic collapse and people being aware of it as an issue. And certainly my, you know, 20-year-old students talk to their 40 to 50 ish year old parents, right? Who are also keenly concerned, like, we want grandkids.

When are you gonna deliver grandkids to us? And so, there's a lot of discussion about that, and there's widespread frustration with dating apps, right? A lot of, a lot of the kids are on Tinder and Hinge, and they find it an incredibly frustrating, demeaning, dehumanizing process in different ways, depending on whether you're a woman or a man, right?

But there's, there's widespread to satisfaction out there and particularly on college campuses, right? Which used to be. Epicenters of the mating market, which used to be wonderful places to meet people. A lot of that has been shut down, actually quite cynically and deliberately by college [00:04:00] administrators.

Simone Collins: What, wait, wait. Okay, so how,

Geoffrey Miller: talk more about this.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Geoffrey Miller: Okay, so about eight or 10 years ago, I was on our UNM College Committee to revise our sexual misconduct policies, right? And so this was setting the policies, rules, and norms about. Basically dating on college campuses. And I've talked to a lot of other faculty, other places who have been involved in this kind of thing.

And basically I would raise questions like, look there, there's, there's trade offs here. Like, yes, we want to minimize state rape. Yes, we wanna minimize sexual harassment, unwanted sexual attentions talking, that's all bad, but on the upside. It would actually be nice if our students could date each other.

Right? Yeah. And there are, there are trade offs there where like if you have a policy that absolutely tries to minimize all possible date rape, right? And that basically criminalizes. [00:05:00] People approaching each other, like with possible romantic intent, right? I said, if you're gonna do that, you're gonna stop the formation of couples on campus, right?

Mm-hmm. And everybody else on the committee was like. We don't care about the college campus being an effective mating market. We do not care. The only priority we have is to absolutely minimize unwanted, uncomfortable sexual attention, right? So a lot of campuses have gone in that direction and the net result is.

Like when I went to college in the eighties. Yeah. Like it was partly to find a marriage partner and partly to practice medium to long-term relationships and like Yes. Figure out what the other sex is like and how like this is so common that I

Malcolm Collins: even grew up was this concept of a MRS degree which is an MRS degree.

S degree. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which meant that you were going college to find a husband. And this was a viable strategy. Many, many, many, many, many, I, I, I might even say it was a normative strategy for our [00:06:00] parents' generation.

Simone Collins: Well, and you went to college looking for a wife, Malcolm. And your brother and his wife, like freshman year.

Malcolm Collins: Freshman year, yeah. Both me and my brother went to college explicitly to find a wife in, in part,

Simone Collins: but now, wow. You know what you're saying, Jeffrey reminds me. It, it's like very similar to what happened, like it has been creeping up with. Parenting in general, where like car seat laws may be causing fewer lives to exist in the United States, for example, just because they're so prohibitively cumbersome.

Mm-hmm. Then they're, they're actually, you know, saving like this, this interest in, in protecting people at all costs, at the cost of even. Growth of the thing we're protecting is is pretty insidious. It's pretty wild. I mean, I almost feel like there should be some kind of index on like dating friendly colleges.

'cause I know many parents are still, the only reason they're, they're saving in their 5 29 accounts and they're actually planning to sending their kids to college is, they're like, at least this is where they'll find their partner. And, and here like now the universities are like, no, no, definitely not.

Don't even think about it. [00:07:00] That's crazy.

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah. So if, if you're a parent and you actually want your kids to be able to find. Possibly a spouse or at least enjoy a long-term relationship and use college as among other things, a mating market. Call the college's Dean of students and ask what exactly are your policies?

Are you a dating friendly campus or are you all about like absolutely minimizing like. Sexual very interesting sexual contact. Right. Call them up and ask them, because it's often the dean of students and you know, to some degree the DEI officers and, and so forth. It's the administrators who are pushing this kind of stuff and, and, and it's.

Yeah. Often the, the, the students don't really know the ins and outs of it. All that they know is that there's a general chilling effect. Right. And that they're getting signals that it's not cool ever. Right. To ask out anybody on campus.

Malcolm Collins: Hmm.

Geoffrey Miller: [00:08:00] Right. And I've done polls of my, my undergraduate males in my sexuality classes, anonymous polls, right?

Mm-hmm. Through iClicker and stuff. Mm-hmm. Would you ever date a female student? Would you ever date a female student that you meet on campus about two thirds? Say absolutely not. Two, a third,

Simone Collins: what's the point of gonna go, oh my gosh, I, I know. And

Geoffrey Miller: then, right. So they're terrified, right? Because they know if they're accused of sexual misconduct, they can get thrown out and that they've racked up student debt and they don't get a degree.

And it, that's fair. It's, yeah. Nightmare.

Malcolm Collins: That's horrifying.

Geoffrey Miller: And so like. I ask who do, who do you date then? And they're like, well, I go to the local community college, or I just, I've given up on dating already at age 20, and it's a nightmare.

Simone Collins: That is wild. What do you also pull your female students are and are they having, like are there interesting asymmetries also that you're noticing between men and women willingness to date?

I mean, there've been some [00:09:00] things that have gone viral on TikTok recently where young women are like, well, I'm going out my tits. Bouncing. I just wish someone would cat call me. Like they're really getting to the point where they're getting frustrated. 'cause no one's paying attention to them, I guess because there's so much liability around it.

But are you seeing, or like what are you seeing in terms of different experiences dating between men and women? That could be a leading indicator of something interesting.

Geoffrey Miller: I think the young women are not aware of just how terrified the young men are about these campus misconduct policies. So not tuned into this, like they know, ah, this is weird.

Nobody's dating me, approaching me, trying to talk to me. Why not? Right? Part of the issue is sex ratio. So a lot of college campuses, it's roughly two women for every man. It's getting to like 60% female, which, so 1.5 to two women per per man, and that, as you guys know, shifts. The, the power in the mating market towards [00:10:00] male short term mating.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Yeah.

Geoffrey Miller: And, and this is why there was

Malcolm Collins: a great study on this, by the way, just a side note here. I don't know if you've heard of this study, but there was a study that looked at the percentage of women on college campuses and dating norms was in college campuses. And the more women you have on a campus as a proportion of the, the, the more promiscuity you get.

Whereas the fewer women you have, the more monogamous relationships are.

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah, that's right. And that's, that's what all the data seemed to, seemed to show. And so if you get female dominated campuses, you might think naively, oh, that gives women the power to set the norms in terms of relationships. No, no, no.

Right. The sex that is in higher demand, and it has heterosexual dating market has more power. So the men have more power and that means they can impose, you know, to, to the degree that matter. On average, more interested in short-term mating and casual dating and casual sex and hookups. Right? Then the women are kind of forced into that, and that's exactly why when Tucker Max and I wrote the mate book 10 [00:11:00] years ago, we said like, if you're a young man, you should try to go to a campus that's, you know, got a high proportion of women and you'll have more bargaining power there.

But if you're a young woman, right, you want to go to like. Caltech? Yes. Or one, one of the rare kind of engineering oriented schools that's a little bit more male dominated.

Simone Collins: Smart. Ooh, the good tactical tips coming in. Although I do wonder if, if calling the Dean of students would work. If you're talking about a religious conservative university, because they do often have like, I mean BYU for example, has some pretty strange Yeah.

I've talked with

Malcolm Collins: the end of the show and the number of them who want to go to BYU is actually really high. Like most of them are very strongly considering BYU.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But to find a

Simone Collins: wife and all of the Catholic parents that we talk with are like, well, obviously my kid's gonna find their, their spouse at like one of these eight Catholic universities.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: But I mean, I, they also have strict rules, but they're rules oriented toward monogamy, I guess.

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah, so it, look, if you're a parent, the, the, the bottom line is [00:12:00] don't just choose whatever university you think will have the highest prestige, will be most helpful in terms of your kids' career. And, and like that you can brag about like to your, your extended family and your neighbors, but really think strategically about it as, as a mating market.

And ev, even if it's not kind of a hardcore Catholic or Mormon University, at least find out. Like do the administrators think it's okay for students to date each other? Yeah. That is important. They basically really discourage that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And

Geoffrey Miller: like, I wouldn't necessarily want one of my kids to get married at age 21, but I would want them to be able to have the experience of having at least some medium term relationships to kind of like calibrate like, what do I want from, you know, a potential partner?

Simone Collins: What different advice. Would you give to a son versus a daughter on the dating market and to your male versus female students? Because, I mean, that's very different [00:13:00] tactics.

Geoffrey Miller: Honestly, the, when I teach in my human sexuality class, the thing that gets the most interest is. Identifying personality disorders to avoid.

Oh, and the, and the red flag. So the women are very

Malcolm Collins: Oh, very interesting. Right? Yeah.

Geoffrey Miller: The women are very interested in like, yeah, I'm kind of attracted to bad boys, but I actually want to avoid like really hardcore. Psychopaths, narcissists, machiavellians, like all that dark triad stuff. And for the men, I talk quite a bit about borderline personality disorder and how it will Yes, it is your life if you're not careful.

Malcolm Collins: How, how do you, how do you spot this stuff?

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah, I mean, that, that's a whole tangent, but, you know, because a lot of them are, are

Malcolm Collins: to anyone who's dating. I know. Everyone's like, no, really Jeffrey, we're talking about how you get Skittles here and now it's like, how do you avoid the poison ones? And you're like, well you, that's a whole [00:14:00] other conversation.

And it's like, what is important in the acquisition of Skittles to not get poisoned Skittles

Geoffrey Miller: to avoid poison Skittles in the mating market. Okay. For borderline for avoiding women with borderline personality disorder. Right? You wanna avoid, yeah. Any signals of extremely high risk seeking, which is drug abuse, alcohol abuse, bad driving.

It, it, frankly, even extreme sports, you, you wanna interrogate them about their attitudes towards exes, right? If they dis every single man they've ever gone out with, and like, my father sucked, my ex-boyfriends all suck. Like, maybe it's you. Maybe it's not them. Yeah. May, maybe that common denominator is like you.

Pick badly and then drive men away. If you get into a relationship with a borderline, then they tend to flip flop between idolizing you and demonizing you, right? So one hour they'll be like, you are the best thing ever. I feel so connected to you. This is awesome, awesome. I'm more in love with [00:15:00] you than ever.

And then an hour later they're having an argument and they're saying, you're, you're just. You know, the worst piece of s**t ever, and I don't trust you at all and blah, blah. So that kind of instability in how they, I. Interpret other people's social behavior. Another big red flag for borderline women is they don't have any female friends.

Malcolm Collins: Mm. 'cause they,

Geoffrey Miller: they burn through all their, their same sex relationships because other women are, are sick of dealing with their, their nonsense. So that's my, my. Capsule, two minute lesson on. That's really good. No,

Simone Collins: those are really easy to spot, so that's amazing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Now let's talk about like dating apps as a dating opportunity right now.

And I also wanna talk about passport bro wives because these are two areas where you're actually seeing tons of wives. We had an episode on just how common passport borough wives are and people. One hugely underestimate this in Korea, if you look at rural rural Korea, one in four [00:16:00] wives are from another country.

If you look at Sweden or Norway and you look at immigration rates, you would think that the immigration rates would glean male because you're getting so many immigrants from like Middle Eastern countries. But it actually turns out that they're gender equal because you get so many passport wives from Russia and South America are the two core places they're coming from.

So I'd love it if you could talk about these two pathways.

Geoffrey Miller: So I know a lot more about dating apps and about passport wives in terms of the passport situation. Yeah, I I mean, I, all I can say is that if you are. Concerned about finding, you know, a traditional monogamous marriage and having a bunch of kids, then you need to find somebody who is from a culture or a nation or a subculture that has been open to that and encouraging of that.

And it's, it's really hard if you grow up in a subculture that is systematically [00:17:00] opposed to long-term marriage and having kids. Frankly, a lot of American culture is I can see the appeal of just trying to, you know, find a mate where you can. And there's a long tradition in human evolution of people mating outside their tribe, right?

We are all genetic hybrids and mongrels to, to one degree or another. And partly that's because people growing up in a particular clan or tribe, are related to everybody. So you don't necess necessarily wanna marry your cousin or your second cousin. But also we're, we're intrigued by cultural difference as long as it's not too, too different.

Malcolm Collins: Hmm.

Geoffrey Miller: So that, that's really all I can say about the passport wife thing. I do worry that often, people might be matching up with others who seem like, okay, maybe they share some core family values, but there's a whole bunch of other. Cultural baggage, right. That comes along with other [00:18:00] cultures that you might not even be aware of,

Malcolm Collins: right?

Yeah.

Geoffrey Miller: You get, you get some wife from Lithuania or, or Namibia or, or India or whatever, and unless you have a deep, deep understanding of that culture and all the expectations around mating and parenting and so forth, and how extended families work in those cultures. Right. That can be a real handicap. You can have some surprises and shocks.

And the other thing is you know, the older I get, the more important I think it is actually to try, if possible, to stay geographically close to parents and grandparents.

Simone Collins: Totally.

Geoffrey Miller: Right. And to really leverage the power of the extended family when you're raising kids together. So, I love political theorist, UAM Azzoni, who did a great book called Conservatism of Rediscovery, and he writes quite extensively about kind of being based and grounded in an extended family that lives nearby and the mm-hmm, the many, many benefits of that.

[00:19:00] So. You know, I understand the appeal of getting a, a kind of passport spouse, but just be aware that like if you're trying to raise kids and the kids' grandparents are thousands of miles away and you're never gonna see them. Yeah, that's a major, major handicap.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's challenge. Actually, one thing I'm really interested in though, like just on this is that

Malcolm Collins: mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: One of our listeners sent to me an essay and article on American Reformer called Highway America is a relic of the past. That is essentially encouraging young men to do road trips, like a job across a drive across the USA and just stop at every. Like diner and coffee place along the way and like hit on attractive young women who are working there because it's, it's almost implying that like you could be a passport bro.

Domestically, there are all these women in flyover America that may be more traditional. And we should, we should consider they're there.

Malcolm Collins: That if you go get a passport for a wife, I think a lot of [00:20:00] people underestimate how far the urban monoculture reaches Mm. In terms of its value system. And a lot of these women just want to use you.

They'll say they want a lot of kids, and then after the, like two kids, they're like, okay, that's all I'm gonna do, because. Was was stability and wealth, and I already have that and I don't want the additional work now. And, and that's not to say they all do. One, one funny story I heard recently from a, I don't know if a fan Yeah, it was a fan in the comments or something, is they were talking about one of their.

Friends. No, it might actually be like somebody I know personally, one of their friend's wives who was a passport wife from some, somewhere in east Asia. And they, they got to four kids and then she's like, you need to take another wife now. She's like, I'm done with with these kids. You, this is too much work.

You need another wife. And I'm like, a lot of people would see that as a very favorable outcome from a passport, bro wife, if they're like, need more wives, what are you doing with only me? But yeah, to keep in mind that you know that you are merging cultures, and that can be a very difficult thing to do.

But [00:21:00] let's know, I met my wife on a dating app Okay. Cupid, before it went crazy. I've said in my book, I said it went crazy, like it was bought by Match Group and they killed the, you know, just full profile search for profile to, to try to push people onto the other more addictive swipe based system.

And the guy, I actually said this in front of the guy. Who was in charge of determining this change? At one point, I didn't know he was in charge of determining this change, and he's like, no. It was all based on the data. More people were using it after the change. It was like, okay, you created in an addictive cycle.

Of course more people were using it. But basically any app that uses a swipe based system is not worth using as a guy. So, and, and the reason it's not worth using is if you look at something like Tinder and you look at the average guy on Tinder, everybody knows the statistic. It's less than 1% of women are swiping right on them.

That's the average guy. That's 50% of men. So 50% of women, less than 1% of women are swiping right on you. They're all going to the same men. So it just doesn't really work at the system because. It means even for the top men, they have no motivation to treat these women [00:22:00] seriously. And all these women who are using it in up feeling like every guy is just using them because it's every guy that they're choosing within this ecosystem is using them.

So they end up becoming super misandrist. But anyway, what's your like, what do you do?

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah. And I, I, I would echo like when I was using OkCupid to date, like 10 to 12, 14 years ago, it was awesome. It was, it was great. So good. And I, I think I answered literally all of the 3000 plus questions same that we use.

Simone Collins: 'cause you could sit up there and farm attention, you'd end up in people's feed with your answers.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Simone came up with a unique system where she would do the answers in long form so that it would show up on people's feeds.

Geoffrey Miller: Oh, I see. That's clever. Yeah. But yeah, the Match group absolutely killed it.

And they are now in the business of monetizing subscriptions and eyeballs and not creating matches. The, the stats I've seen is that roughly one in 5 million swipes [00:23:00] results in a marriage.

Simone Collins: Oh my God.

Geoffrey Miller: On those apps?

Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, it's

Geoffrey Miller: literally less, you'd have to swipe. All day, every day, particularly if you're a guy, right, to get even a reasonable number of dates.

And then because the algorithm isn't matching you effectively based on any kind of psychological traits or life interests or politics or religion or you know, interest in family formation. And this is why I've started working as a sort of consulting scientist with Keeper, which is a new dating app that really tries to help.

People who seriously want to get families right to find each other, and particularly based on deeper psychological compatibility. So, yeah,

Simone Collins: I'm, I'm interested in keeper because it seems to me like the new match. So when I was on OkCupid, I was just looking to date at that time, like I didn't wanna get married.

But then there was another girl at my office who really wanted to get married and so she went to match.com. And then like. [00:24:00] A couple months later, she met the guy who then like one month later, after that became her fiance and they got married and like it was done and we, I'd known a bunch of people who'd just done that.

It was like Match was for closers and I think that's kind of fallen apart or it's not really for demographic that's relevant to young people. And when I first heard about Keeper. It was under, it sounded so mysterious. It was like, well you have to like put down $50,000 and then you only get it if you get married.

You know, like something like it required a ton of commitment and I think it's changed a lot since then. But I was really intrigued by like, what are some smart people's entrepreneurial take to like get people to actually commit? Because I feel like switching costs now are so low and the desire to actually commit is so low.

That people, even when they're matched with someone who's a really good. Potential partner. Mm-hmm. They're like, like she's not a Brazilian model. Like, I'll pass, I'm not feeling it right now. Yeah, they're not taking it seriously. So what does keep her do? Because I think they had to walk back the financial commitment part.

'cause I don't think they were gonna get a lot of customers doing that, but [00:25:00] like, what's going on?

Geoffrey Miller: So. The economic model is, is basically you want to make sure that the people who are on a serious dating app are really actually serious about finding a long-term partner. So they do still have a marriage bounty plan, okay.

Where you basically sign a contract that says for not just for marriage, but different milestones of the relationship, like, you know, if you have been dating for a year or you're actually cohabiting or if you get married or even if you have your first kid, there's kind of an escalating payout structure, right?

So that basically your incentives to find the long-term mate are absolutely aligned. With the dating apps, incentives in terms of revenue generation. And then there's a second model, which is basically you pay per contact, you pay per date, right? Oh yeah. But I mean, you do that on

Simone Collins: Ashley Madison, so I, you know, that's not

Geoffrey Miller: well, but then your [00:26:00] right, Ashley Madison is for people already married, cheating, right?

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Geoffrey Miller: So. The keeper is strongly discouraging, casual dating, cheating, et cetera. Yeah. They, they actually, you know, are, have ways to vet people in terms of their, oh my god, authenticity and their, and their commitment to, to the process. So I think what'll probably end up happening more often is that keeper is all about like, quality over quantity.

They're really trying to find, an extremely good match for each person, and they're sort of like suggesting, here's the match, we're gonna give you one at a time. Hmm. Right. We encourage you guys to like communicate a little bit. If you want full contact information, then that's, that's a little bit of a cost, like a couple hundred dollars, right?

Mm-hmm. So you're not treating it as if it's like a gamified. Like [00:27:00] source of sexual validation, like how many people are swiping on me and then like, how many can I swipe on? Mm. No, just taking that off the table. So the whole mental model of it is sort of like imagine your parents or a trusted mentor or like, here's a young woman I know and respect to, I think would be a great match for you young man.

And if I introduce you right. You're gonna treat her like a real human being, not just like a profile, right? So that's the mindset. It's a little bit more like traditional matchmaking, but using like AI algorithms and using the power of big data. So it's completely the opposite mindset of like, swipe, swipe, swipe.

Left, left, left, swipe and, and then like text and then get ghosted. Right.

Malcolm Collins: Well, the core failing of the swipe ecosystem, which is switching costs. Mm-hmm. The core failing of the swipe ecosystem is that there is always another, and when there is always another and there is [00:28:00] incredibly low switching costs that then, then people do not treat any particular relationship particularly seriously.

Yeah. How much are people

Simone Collins: putting down for bounties? Like, what is, what do you think is a, a compelling marriage bounty?

Geoffrey Miller: I think so far, typically the marriage bounties are on the order of 10, 20, $30,000.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Geoffrey Miller: But some people are going up to like six figures, you know, over a hundred thousand. Some people have put down like seven figure bounties.

Like, I will pay you two or $3 million if you find me a good spouse.

Malcolm Collins: Ooh.

Geoffrey Miller: And this is a, this is a dating app where the median. Male annual income is something like 170, $180,000, and like the top quartile is mid six figures. So these are successful people and a lot of them, you know, if, if they're serious about finding a spouse, are willing to pay for it.

And they know, like, look, if, if you're some. Entrepreneur [00:29:00] and or angel investor or whatever, and you've got a serious net worth, then finding a good wife or husband is a, is a massive life benefit. How much is it worth to you, right, to find someone who's a extremely compatible and wants to have a bunch of kids with you, and B, where you're so compatible that the likelihood of a disastrous divorce.

It's very, very low.

Malcolm Collins: It, it's funny when you mention marrying, you know, wealth of people and I think that this is, you know, different classes often. Mary was in the class and, and my mom when, when I was looking for a wife, you know, around the time I was dating you, she's like, why don't you just go to debutante balls?

You can, you can find great wives at those. And I was like, mom, how do you think I'm gonna get invited to a debutante ball? I live in effing like Scotland and San Francisco. Do you think they're having debutante balls in San Francisco? You need to be aware of where certain like, groups or meeting was in each [00:30:00] generational pool, and an update as that switches.

Geoffrey Miller: Mm. Yeah. And it, it, it is a colossal failure honestly of, of, you know, older millennials and, and Gen X, like me and the boomers that we have failed to maintain and update those kinds of, informal or formal mating markets. Like when I was in high school, there was a thing called cotillion. Right. And if you were a sort of bourgeois Yeah.

I didn't young man or woman. Right? You, you would go to these things like four times a year and all the young men would dress up in tuxedos and then they would dance to punk music and, and you would get used to interacting with other people in, in the coill group. As real people. And often they were going to the same high school as you, but you saw them in a new context where it's like, ah, this is romantic.

There's candlelight, there's music. It's, it's at a country club. That's cool. But what are the modern equivalents? Right? Church? Yes. That can work. College clubs. Yeah. But then you got the, the [00:31:00] sexual misconduct policies to worry about.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Geoffrey Miller: CrossFit, right. Going to some demanding leisure activity that has a decent sex ratio that can work.

I mean, that's how my, my co-author Tucker Max found his, his wife. He's like, oh, really? I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to CrossFit classes and I'm gonna find, I'm gonna find a registered nurse.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Geoffrey Miller: right. So specific. Right. And he, he, he tuned it in and he. And he found one and she's great. And she's smart. And now they have whatever, four kids and live in rural Tennessee.

And they're, they're, they're out there and he's teaching his kids how to do long range precision rifle shooting and, and it's great. Living the dream. Yes, living the dream.

Simone Collins: That's so interesting. Okay. Well, so I mean, one thing that Malcolm and I talk about a lot is basically, arranging marriages or very lightly arranging marriages for our children, or at least doing matchmaking.

We've created this group of parents with kids of [00:32:00] similar ages to our kids, and then when they start hitting age seven, age eight, we're gonna try to get them on like, you know, summer camps together, vacations together, you know, hanging out, doing stuff together, you know, maybe once a year or once every other year.

So they start to get to know each other and then later on. A set of discord servers, all sorts of things that like, virtually they might like play video games together or something. And then over time be like, Hey, you know, you're 21, you're 18. Like, have you seriously concerned so-and-so, we, we think that a lot of people aren't really talking about how really only until very recently in human history have families and parents stopped becoming involved in their kids.

Matchmaking and dating lives. I mean, n now it's kind of considered weird for a family to even weigh in or provide an opinion on a boyfriend or girlfriend, and I get it because you could lose your kid if you like. You know, they insist they have to marry this person and you hate them, then they're gonna choose them and you lose your relationship with your kid.

But on the other hand. You know, I think [00:33:00] a lot of, a lot of people would appreciate having a little bit more help and guidance, even if they might complain about it. What are your thoughts on getting involved in and meddling in your children's dating lives?

Geoffrey Miller: I'm all for it, I think. Absolutely. And, you know, thankfully, like with my daughter, we talk quite a bit about her, her dating life and her relationships and her made choice criteria. And she knows, I'm like, I've written books about this so I'm not just some random, random old dude, but I think a lot of parents have a real failure of nerve. I think they're absolutely gutless on this issue.

Mm-hmm. And they need to weigh in and they need to start doing it from, you know, the time their, their kids are teenagers and. Be willing to say, I just don't think she or he is is right for you. But let me explain why and let me unpack it. Let me give you my life experiences, right, that are my relevant source of wisdom about how this particular.[00:34:00]

Red flag, right? And this young person is gonna play out in the future. Nice. So the parents have to be articulate about it. They have to connect it to their own life experiences. That requires a bit of vulnerability. But I, I see this, this massive failure of parental duty. Like where Oh yeah, you're allowed to give your kids advice on education and career, but not about mating.

And it, it's so, it's so dumb because like in retrospect, my parents when I was a teenager could have easily found like a dozen young women who I would've actually had quite a happy marriage with. Like, they knew me better than I knew myself.

Simone Collins: A fair point,

Geoffrey Miller: right? They knew my, yeah, my strengths and weaknesses, my traits, my quirks, because they were surrounded by, you know, other parents', kids, and they, they were, they were smart and observant.

And the notion that a 20-year-old [00:35:00] knows themselves better than their parents do is in a way very narcissistic and very strange.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And, and, and

Geoffrey Miller: like, oh, also you can weave together the parental advice and the dating apps, right? Oh, wait, how Well, like, for example, you could actually include your parents in the assessment right Now if you're, if you're on Tinder, right?

Of course your parents aren't gonna be. Standing behind your shoulder, like monitoring every swipe. But if you're on like a keeper dating app where you're getting just one, hopefully really good match. Oh yeah. You can send them

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. At a

Geoffrey Miller: time, right? You could potentially share it with them, zoom with them, get their advice, and you have a rich enough set of information about each potential mate, right?

That the parents could look at that and go, yeah, well actually mm-hmm. Let me explain to [00:36:00] you why, like, hopefully Keeper is even smarter than you are about why this would be a great match or maybe why not, right? It's good. Yeah. And so we, we would, I ideally want to empower young people to like. Fold their family and their friends into this dating app experience.

Malcolm Collins: Hmm. I like that.

Geoffrey Miller: So if, if you're not comfortable doing it with your parents, at least maybe do it with your siblings. At least do it with, with housemates, with friends, whatever. Don't keep it as like your secret little vice, like, like Tinder or Hinge, where it's like I just do this to be like a so cystic.

Like secret of sexual validation. Yeah. Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: You mentioned this, one of the things we talk about on this channel a lot is cross-cultural differences and a big difference across the American cultural groups. And you can go to our videos on the backwards, cultural tradition, everything like this.

And the various culture is, is some groups like the backwards cultural tradition, which is like the Appalachian cultural tradition. Primarily vets, spouses through [00:37:00] siblings and then other groups, primarily vet spouses through parents. And I, I just happen to be through a culture that primarily vet spouses through siblings.

And so this is to say that there are many ways that you can build a vetting system for spouses that rely on people who know you better and rely on the crowd opinion, but the crowd opinion is always gonna be better than your individual opinion. And I know that as a society we have completely atomized romance, but it's really stupid, especially if you wanna get married as young as you need to, to have a lot of kids.

Recently we did an episode, I don't know when it'll go live, but it was on, we need more teen marriages. And the problem, the biggest problem with teen or young marriages is I, I mean young, you know, early twenties, whatever, is that you don't fully know yourself yet. You don't know who you're gonna become.

And you're not fully myelinated. But. Your parents and your friends, like aggregately, the people around you know, you the people who have a vested interest in your future know you. And this is why so many societies [00:38:00] used people like that for marriage, choosers of these. And people can be like, well, what about love?

And it's like, well, you know, love isn't, it didn't exactly evolve within a context. That's meant to choose the perfect spouse. It's meant to make you love whoever you think is going to be the, the parent of your kid because you know, then you don't kill them or the kid or anything like that. It's, it's not meant to be a spouse choosing mechanism within an evolutionary context.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and I'll just just for those who are brothers, sisters, moms, dads who are listening to this and thinking like, how can I get involved in a way that's meaningful? Malcolm actually, his whole family got involved in, in pitching me to him, kind of like one Malcolm participated in that very early on in our dating, even when.

I was under the impression that we were never gonna get married. You introduced me to your dad. It was like introduced me to your mom's dad. It was

Malcolm Collins: 20 or something.

Simone Collins: It was, it was with, you introduced me to your dad in like the first week and then after we broke up, you, you literally, [00:39:00] you were out of the country and you had me go to dinner with your parents who were in town.

And then after we got back together one, so like his brother and sister got involved just hammering Malcolm. Like, you need to marry her. She's right for you. Wait, do you

Malcolm Collins: remember this? Wait, what do you remember about moms and Bri? I also,

Simone Collins: they, they were just like Malcolm in that way that they always are.

Malcolm, you need to just, you're not gonna find anyone else. You're, you know, you're impossible. She's the only one who'll deal with you. And then your mom started sending both of us engagement rings that she found on first dibs. And she just kept sending the rings and sending the rings and sending the rings, and then being like, oh, I'm gonna come, you know, visit, you should propose to her here.

You should propose to her there. And she's just like a constant force in both of our lives making it really top of mind and making it like, I, I think a lot of parents just aren't necessarily thinking about like, how I think

Malcolm Collins: about doing this. Like the reason I got married at the age I got married at. And I think that a lot of people, they don't, they don't see this is, I had a.

A family [00:40:00] that was around me constantly telling me to get married to this person. And they didn't tell, say this for other girls I dated. They didn't, they didn't actually, they never said this about any girl I dated before that You need to marry this girl. They

Simone Collins: even moved up the timeline. They, they actually moved up, like his family moved up the timeline because I was like, well, I want Malcolm to propose to me when he can, through his work, afford to pay.

Using his own salary for an engagement ring. Mm-hmm. I just, I don't know, like it was a, it's a stupid thing on my, I don't know why I said that, but I did. And Malcolm's mom was like, oh, it's just that. And she like pulls off her earring, which is this like big diamond and she's like, slides it across the table and she's.

All right. Turn this into a ring. 'cause you can afford this. Like, she's just like, she was like, okay, you know, what do we need to do to, to close? Her, her like, her constant phrase to the family was dinners for closers. She just was always about like, let's get it done. And I, I think parents, when they think about getting involved, maybe they think about nagging, maybe they think about, like, I think you have to think about this like a salesperson.

Like where is the friction [00:41:00] and how can I remove that? Or how can I keep this top of mind? Like what's my drip campaign? Where's the propaganda? So, okay, Jeffrey, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're totally trapped now. 'cause I'm gonna put you, you on, on our list of, of matchmaking families for your youngest daughters because you know, we've got, we've got really great young men for them to consider later on in life.

Geoffrey Miller: I mean, American culture's like, oh, it's really creepy to think that far ahead, but it life is short and life goes by fast. Oh, yeah. And you know, the standard parental advice is like, oh, the days are long and the years are short. And before you know it, your toddlers will be in high school and then they'll be looking for mates and frustrated and, you know, another issue here is like, apart from the collective wisdom of the extended family and the parents and the siblings, it's also really, really helpful to get to know the family of a potential mate early, right? Mm-hmm. 'cause of [00:42:00] heredity. Because traits are heritable. Yes. Right? Yes. Don't look at the

Simone Collins: woman.

Look at her mom. Right? Because then you know how she's gonna age.

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah. So you want to be able to integrate information about all these phenotypic traits, right? All these physical and, and mental traits. Physical and mental health. Right? And this is another one of the many reasons for tism in big families is you just get a bigger sample size of what are the genes in this family like?

Malcolm Collins: That's true.

Geoffrey Miller: Like, there was a funny asymmetry where when my dad as a long young lawyer age circa 26, started dating my mom, age 19 college student. My mom had 11 brothers and sisters. Right. Big family.

Malcolm Collins: Wow.

Geoffrey Miller: So my dad could meet all these siblings and just see the, the mosaic of traits right. Expressed in all these siblings and get a much better kind of estimate of.

What my, you know, 19-year-old mom was gonna be like, versus [00:43:00] my dad was an only child, so she had to assess him just based on him and his parents, and that's pretty much it.

Malcolm Collins: Mm.

Geoffrey Miller: So one hidden cost of very, very small families is, it makes. Potential suitors, less confident about like, what, what really is this person like?

'cause I can't see the way that. Similar genes are expressed in siblings and parents. Yes.

Simone Collins: That's really interesting. There's, there's even this old Victorian dating guide that was written where the, the author was also like, just don't date an only child. They're going to be too selfish. And their parents clearly failed to thrive.

Like the just, he just like was completely writing off all single children. Even to the Victorian age. There's, there's, there's gotta be some wisdom to this.

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah, I, I actually don't think it's, it's the case that the single kids are sort of messed up psychologically per se. It's just you don't know as much about, about the genes that they [00:44:00] like Lady carry because you don't have as big a sample of, of their relatives.

Simone Collins: 100%. Yeah, that's a really good point. Okay, final, final rapid fire question. In what way or in to what scale do you think we're totally super screwed by ai, boyfriends and girlfriends coming online and providing basically the ultimate sync for anyone who decides, like, I am just gonna. Just focus on hedonism and this perfect boyfriend girlfriend that I can, you know, eventually plug into a very responsive sex doll.

Like, whatever. Right? Like, it's gonna get way more advanced than it is now. Do you think that we're super screwed or are we just gonna lose a certain portion of the population that only cares about a certain type of pleasure? Well, what do you think is gonna happen as this rolls out?

Geoffrey Miller: I think it's a.

It's a big, big problem, and I think we're gonna be blindsided by it. And I think it's gonna actually affect young men and young women about equally, but in different ways. Totally agree, right? So yes, the young men are gonna be able to get this like [00:45:00] super attractive, curvy, vivacious, validating, like girlfriend, and they'll be able to put on their virtual reality like headset and have like virtual sex with these AI girlfriends and their sexy

Simone Collins: haptic suits.

Yeah.

Geoffrey Miller: And, and. By contrast, dealing with like real women and all their, their nonsense will become quite unattractive. But on the. On the other hand, for the young women, right? They're gonna get these ai boyfriends like chat, GPT, which is currently kind of my wife's secondary partner. Like,

Malcolm Collins: we're, by the way, building better AI girlfriends was our fab.ai for anyone who wants to check it out.

Oh, thanks.

Simone Collins: Just in case you wanted to like sterilize more people, Malcolm. Yeah, I

Malcolm Collins: we're in the early stages. Well, hey, Elon is doing it with grok. We just have to beat him.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Simultaneously through, through one side of the mouth.

Geoffrey Miller: And so the, like, if you read women's romance novels, right? You know what women want and what they, what they crave.

And so if you have like AI boyfriends that are on the one hand [00:46:00] kind of like Dami and Superior, and they. Push the hyper gamy button, right? Where the women are like, oh man, I can't believe such a, such a bad boy. Such a high status pirate captain is my own personal, such

Simone Collins: werewolf and

Geoffrey Miller: conversation partner.

But on the other hand, you know, the AI boyfriends will be able to remember. Every single detail of the young women's lives, their birthdays, their interests, their Oh

Malcolm Collins: no,

Geoffrey Miller: their pets. Like if the woman's like, I love this movie, the AI boyfriend will be able to like, literally go off and, and basically like, watch every episode

Simone Collins: Yes.

Of it

Geoffrey Miller: and then be able to talk about it.

Simone Collins: No, every line, every reference. Oh God.

Geoffrey Miller: And so real, real young men who are like distractible and have fallible memories and like insufficient attentiveness and all that will seem really lame. By comparison. So I worry a lot about this, and I think it's one of probably my top [00:47:00] five AI risks that, you know, I, I would be concerned about.

So AI for matchmaking, great AI for fake boyfriends and girlfriends could be very dangerous, but on the like, okay, what's the silver lining? Mm-hmm. You could potentially design an AI boyfriend or girlfriend that is specifically to level up social skills.

Simone Collins: Yeah. A lot of people are arguing this. That's a good point.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe

Geoffrey Miller: you could do that, but then you'd have to be really careful about how exactly are the economics of the ai, boyfriend, girlfriend, software makers aligned really with the long-term interests of the users. Right. Is it really leveling them up or are they just getting a kind of gamified like way to overcome mileage, autism kind of thing?

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don't know the way dating apps have [00:48:00] devolved on the broader scale aside from, you know, some of the more innovative, really results oriented ones suggests outlook. Not good. But I don't know. I mean, part of our approach that we're taking with our kids is more like, if you want, pleasure sure.

Use AI for that. But marriage is, is as much a career choice, a survival choice as it is. I mean, it's, it's really actually not at all, it from our perspective about pleasure or romance. I mean, it's, it's great if those things are there and that that should, you know, compatibility is important, et cetera, et cetera.

But like we we're trying to raise our kids to not think. That because I mean we, for the vast majority of human history, and maybe, I mean you can comment on this 'cause you're probably way more informed on this from an evolutionary psychology perspective, but for the vast majority of human history, human pair bonding has not necessarily been about romance or love.

And yet now people, modern people are expecting a cortisone. [00:49:00] Without paying them a salary, without having the budget for that. Like, they just want someone who will, who will amuse and pleasure them, who is perpetually young and attractive. When that's never been what marriage has been about. I mean, it's been about like a, a sort of commercial religious, family oriented agreement.

And we're trying to reorientate our children around that, that all this romance stuff is. This other thing that is better handled with AI anyway, so just use AI for that and then think of marriage as something completely divorced from it. But, but how are you, how are you thinking about preparing, especially your younger kids?

For, for this. I mean, there's some time you can see how it plays out a little, but what are your initial thoughts?

Geoffrey Miller: I mean, one, one thing I talk about a fair amount with with both my wife Diana Fleischman, and we also have a friend, Athena Actus. Oh, she's so cool. Yes. Yeah, she's cool. She wrote a book called A Field Guide to the Apocalypse, and the mindset there is like in terms [00:50:00] of guiding kids in their mate choice.

Hedge your bets about what the future will be like, right? So the future might be super high tech and maybe we have benevolent AI and every everything gets easier. But the future might also be post-apocalyptic AI makes a lot of trouble. There are a few survivors, right? How do you survive? Or it might just be kind of a gentle grid down.

You need to go into like prepper homesteading mode. Okay? So find a mate who would be good. At any of those

Malcolm Collins: Mm Right.

Geoffrey Miller: Game out. What are some likely and plausible scenarios and try to find, you know, a partner for your kids or for yourself who is gonna be as at home and making a living podcasting as they are at milking cows or defending your homestead against marauders.

Right. Or [00:51:00] dealing with, you know, a but Larry and Jihad, when you're all fighting the ais, and that I think helps PE keep people grounded because what I worry about at the moment is a lot of people like in Brooklyn or the Bay Area, are choosing their mates on the assumption that the current service and information based economy will just continue largely as it has.

Malcolm Collins: Hmm.

Geoffrey Miller: And at this particular point in history, that seems more unlikely than many other possibilities.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that checks out. That's solid advice. Okay, cool. Jeffrey, thank you so much for coming on Basecamp. This was really fun. My pleasure. Great

Malcolm Collins: to have you on. Great to suck. Yeah. Hey, our friends like it when other friends come on because like there's this weird little social network where everybody knows each other.

Simone Collins: Worlds collide. Yeah. But also you provided a lot of really good tactical advice. That is not stuff that's obvious to us. So this is very useful to, I'm, I'm thinking differently about the, the way we're gonna [00:52:00] tweak our, our propaganda and messaging with our children. So I'm really excited

Malcolm Collins: about this.

Our propaganda and messaging.

Simone Collins: I mean, these things are important in the very,

Malcolm Collins: we don't brainwash our children even a little, never.

Simone Collins: That would never happen in our household.

Malcolm Collins: They they they are crazy. I mean, they,

Simone Collins: they're, they're just as worse. They're worst. So,

Malcolm Collins: wait, if we wanna end our, our, our podcast on a fun and and differential note, what are you gonna have for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Jeffrey, what's for dinner?

Geoffrey Miller: Oh, God only knows oh, stuffed peppers. I believe my, my wife is is making,

Malcolm Collins: that's pretty fancy s**t, man. Stuffed peppers,

Geoffrey Miller: stuffed red peppers. Stuff with this banana with

Simone Collins: cheese. They're like corn meat with with

Geoffrey Miller: cheese and whatever our kids will eat.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So,

Geoffrey Miller: oh yeah, we've got these.

You're eating

Simone Collins: stuffed peppers. My God. No.

Geoffrey Miller: Oh, yeah. We, we, we try to feed them pretty well. And

Malcolm Collins: my kids this is the thing, my kids will only eat if every ingredient is separated from every other ingredient. Yeah. We're like, [00:53:00] they've got this, whatever. Like they've got too much Jewish DNA, I don't know, but they want everything completely separated and not touching anything else.

Yes. The idea of putting one food inside another food. Oh, goodness. No, no, no, no. Not peppers. That's sacrilege.

Pretty nice red fruits can have seriously negative effects on one's powers. This one curbs magical abilities. Are you trying to say you don't like tomatoes? This green, squishy area is particularly dangerous. Just look at it. There's obviously something diabolical going on. Are they really that bad? Rice has been tainted by its evil.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, even if, you know, they, they ask for pepperoni pizza, but then they have to remove all the pepperonis because. And

Malcolm Collins: they're like, we're gonna remove the pepperoni and we're gonna remove the cheese.

Yeah. And we're gonna eat every piece individually.

Geoffrey Miller: Yeah. But no, the exciting plan is for our little girl Stella is turning to tomorrow, and we're gonna take them up to Meow [00:54:00] Wolf, which is an amazing experience in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It looks

Simone Collins: super fun. And what is Meow Wolf?

Geoffrey Miller: It's kind, it's hard to explain.

It's, it's a semi psychedelic, exploratory experience that is part museum kind of artsy, but partly you just go there and explore it and, m-E-O-W-W-O-L-F, Meow Wolf. There's actually several of them in different American cities now, and they're great fun and highly recommend it.

Malcolm Collins: This looks really fun.

This is pretty cool. Oh yeah. No,

Simone Collins: it's gonna be, this is, you guys do birthdays properly, so Yeah. Props birthday. Yeah. It's her birthday. It's it's a good, yeah, it's a good birthday party. Our kids would s spurt out there too much. They'd be, it's like a bad trip for them. I just know. Yeah. We don't, we

Malcolm Collins: don't let our kids outta the house anymore.

We any better than we do that. We had a,

Simone Collins: our bigger problem is they busk and they steal. So we, we can't, we can't take them anymore. Because it's, it's just too dangerous.

Malcolm Collins: They barely steal Simone. Okay. They, but they [00:55:00] bus very aggressively,

Simone Collins: so we can't, you you

Malcolm Collins: told them me. The story of a kid goes.

School. He comes back with a Pokemon card. We go, how did you get this Pokemon card? And then he tells me, well, another kid at school ripped my art. And I was like, well, what does that have to do with this Pokemon card? And he, and, and then he goes, well, I told him that if he didn't give me his Pokemon card, I would tell the teacher.

And then we're like, Octavian, that's blackmail. You shouldn't do that. And he, and he looks at us very sternly and he goes, there have to be consequences.

Simone Collins: Yeah. When it comes to propaganda in our household, I feel like our children are more. Heavy on the propaganda than we are. So, but yeah, he's,

Geoffrey Miller: he's like a little, little John wick consequences.

Simone Collins: We're so scared. We're so scared. Alright, well enjoy the stuffed peppers tonight. And thank you so much for your tactical advice. I'm very excited about this. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm absolutely gonna be recommending Keeper to people because like actual traditional matchmakers, every time I like, suggest people try them out, they're like.

[00:56:00] These people are so like incompetent and like, this actually sounds organized, so they're incompetent. You wanna know, like in in the startup world, it's all about playing a game of arbitrage. Like where can I, you know, where can I act, tap into this market where there's an advantage? And it, it's clear that like if you want a professional, results oriented, gets things done fairly affluent partner like.

This is where you should go. So get it while you can last guys before everyone else hears about it. I'm really excited about that. So yeah, it's, it's good to hear one before, you know, our matchmaking network starts to work because we have teenagers reaching out to us, being like, Hey, like, I'm in college.

Like, where do I go? And we're like, well. You know, we'd add you to our matchmaking network, but it's all like two to five year olds now. It's not really gonna be your thing. I mean, maybe if they wanna be like, you know, age gap relationships in like 10 to 15 years, but not yet. So whatcha gonna do. All right.

Well thank you very much Jeffrey.

Geoffrey Miller: Good to to see you guys. Take care. All

Simone Collins: right. Have a great day.

Geoffrey Miller: You too. All.

Simone Collins: No toast. Eat. You fill the [00:57:00] gun with water. From the hose? Yeah, from the spigot. Not by filling your mouth and spitting in it. Octavian, did you show him that? No. No, I did not. That's not how you do it, buddy. I gotta reload again. Yeah, go reload. Then

Octavian Collins: just the water. Well, yeah, you're gonna shoot it on Octavian, right? Oh, professor, where are you getting shot at? Not you gotta put, okay.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay.[00:58:00]

Now go there.

Okay,

why you gotta go queen and talk and

then you.

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