The Michael Shermer Show Why Survival Isn't Enough: The Deep Human Need to Matter
Join philosopher and MacArthur Fellow Rebecca Newberger Goldstein as she delves into the profound human need to matter, rather than simply seek happiness or survival. She introduces her concept of 'mattering,' exploring how it fuels both great achievements and darker outcomes like extremism. Goldstein discusses the moral implications of mattering, critiques the notion of divine morality, and contrasts constructive forms of significance with destructive ones. With insights into narcissism, creativity, and even school shootings, this conversation offers a rich tapestry of human motivation.
01:21:50
The Deep Longing To Matter
- Humans uniquely long to matter; this drive organizes our values and behavior.
- Rebecca Newberger Goldstein argues mattering, not happiness or survival, best explains our normative nature.
Entropy Frames Moral Value
- Goldstein ties meaning to physics: life resists entropy, creating order from disorder.
- She proposes ethical worth depends on whether your mattering project is counter‑entropic or disorderly.
Choose Counter‑Entropic Projects
- Choose mattering projects that add order: raise children, tend a garden, pursue knowledge.
- Align personal goals with life’s counter‑entropic purpose to make your mattering ethically valuable.
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Intro
00:00 • 1min
Defining the Mattering Instinct
01:06 • 2min
Origins of the Idea in Fiction
03:34 • 4min
Four Mattering Strategies Overview
07:13 • 3min
Transcenders and Cosmic Mattering
10:07 • 3min
Morality Without God
13:34 • 3min
Entropy as an Ethical Anchor
16:43 • 3min
Heroic Strivers and Excellence
19:49 • 5min
Competitors and the Zero-Sum Mattering
24:30 • 6min
Mattering's Moral Valence
30:14 • 4min
Free Will, Determinism, and Agency
34:23 • 5min
Sensitive Periods and Life Change
39:28 • 2min
Terror Management vs. Mattering
41:46 • 3min
Mattering in School Shooters and Terrorists
44:22 • 2min
The Dark Triad and Pathological Mattering
46:52 • 7min
Proselytizing Our Own Mattering
53:31 • 5min
Practical Ingredients of Flourishing
58:03 • 2min
Socializers, Fame, and Intimacy
59:53 • 4min
Cult Dynamics and Love-Bombing
01:03:35 • 5min
Spinoza, Understanding Human Actions
01:08:41 • 7min
Legacy, Telos, and Diverse Mattering Paths
01:15:40 • 6min
Life as Resistance to Entropy
01:21:22 • 25sec
Outro
01:21:48 • 1sec
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What if the deepest human drive isn't happiness, survival, or even love, but the need to matter?
Philosopher and MacArthur Fellow Rebecca Newberger Goldstein joins Michael Shermer to discuss The Mattering Instinct, her argument that the desire to feel significant lies at the core of human behavior. That drive helps explain our greatest achievements, from creativity and moral courage to scientific and artistic excellence. It also helps explain some of our darkest outcomes, including extremism, violence, and ideological fanaticism.
Goldstein examines why people will give up comfort, status, and sometimes even their own lives to feel that they matter. She questions why meaning cannot be captured by happiness metrics or self-help formulas, and why the same psychological force can produce saints, scientists, athletes, cult leaders, and terrorists. The conversation moves through free will, entropy, morality without God, fame, narcissism, and the crucial difference between ways of mattering that create order and those that leave damage behind.
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein is an award-winning philosopher, writer, and public intellectual. She is the author of ten books of acclaimed fiction and non-fiction, including 36 Arguments for the Existence of God: A Work of Fiction and Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. She holds a PhD in philosophy of science from Princeton University and has taught at Yale, Columbia, NYU, Dartmouth, and Harvard. A fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, her work has been supported by the MacArthur "Genius" grant and fellowships from the Guggenheim, Whiting Institute, Radcliffe Institute, and the National Science Foundation. Her new book is The Mattering Instinct: How Our Deepest Longing Drives Us and Divides Us.