#280 - The Four Realms of Existence: A Dialogue with Joseph LeDoux
Nov 20, 2023
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In this episode, Xavier Bonilla has a dialogue with Joseph LeDoux about human cognition, consciousness, and existence. They discuss his work on split brain patients, the four realms of existence, idea of the self, personality and temperament, and integration information theory. They also talk about extended mind, habits and goal direct behaviors, consciousness in the prefrontal cortex, Tulving’s 3 layers of consciousness, fear, AI and consciousness, and more.
Joseph Ledoux's book, 'The Four Realms of Existence,' presents a framework for understanding human experience and behavior through the realms of biological, neurobiological, cognitive, and conscious aspects.
Ledoux explores the evolutionary development of behavior and consciousness, highlighting the transition from habitual behavior to goal-directed behavior and the role of the prefrontal cortex, including the frontal pole unique to humans, in self-awareness and distinct forms of consciousness.
Ledoux challenges traditional notions of the self and personality, proposing a reframing within the four realms framework and emphasizing the interconnectedness of biological and neural processes in shaping individual traits.
Deep dives
The Four Realms of Existence: A New Theory of Being Human
In this podcast episode, Joseph Ledoux discusses his new book, 'The Four Realms of Existence,' which explores the different aspects of being human. Ledoux explains that the book focuses on the four realms: biological, neurobiological, cognitive, and conscious. He argues that these realms provide a framework for understanding the various elements that shape our experience and behavior. Ledoux also discusses his work with split brain patients and how it influenced his understanding of consciousness, memory, and emotion. He explores the role of the prefrontal cortex in different levels of consciousness and sheds light on the connection between cognition and emotion. Overall, the episode delves into the complexities of human existence and offers insights into the intricate workings of our minds and bodies.
The Evolutionary Journey: From Habitual Behavior to Consciousness
The podcast episode explores the evolutionary development of behavior and consciousness. Ledoux highlights the transition from habitual behavior to goal-directed behavior and its connection to the development of cognitive abilities. He draws on the example of the granular and subgranular areas of prefrontal cortex that are present in primates, including humans, enabling more advanced working memory and cognitive processing. Ledoux suggests that the frontal pole in the lateral prefrontal cortex, unique to humans, may be linked to self-awareness and a distinct form of consciousness. Additionally, Ledoux touches on the idea of emotions as amplifications of cognitive experiences, highlighting their intertwined nature with cognition.
Understanding the Self and Personality
Ledoux challenges traditional notions of the self and personality, suggesting a shift in how we conceive of these concepts. He proposes repackaging these ideas within the framework of the four realms, reframing self as a narrative we construct about ourselves. He argues that personality traits can be better understood within the neurobiological realm, with specific manifestations in neural networks and automatic behaviors. Ledoux emphasizes that the stability of traits in individuals results from their neurobiological makeup and experiences, rather than an inherent essence. This perspective challenges the traditional view of fixed personalities and highlights the interconnectedness of biological and neural processes in shaping individual traits.
From Cognition to Emotion: Unpacking Conscious Experience
The podcast delves into the relationship between cognition and emotion, challenging the dichotomy between the two. Ledoux argues that emotions are cognitions with additional ingredients, intensifying the cognitive experience. He elucidates that emotions require a cognitive foundation, but add elements such as physiological responses and subjective feelings. Ledoux proposes that emotional experiences, like fear, can be understood within the framework of cognition, highlighting the role of the amygdala in threat conditioning. By reframing emotions as cognitive experiences, Ledoux emphasizes the interconnectedness and complexity of cognitive and emotional processes.
The Role of the Amygdala in Fear Conditioning
The podcast episode discusses the role of the amygdala in fear conditioning. The speaker recounts their journey into studying the amygdala and how they initially had to masquerade as a Pavlovian conditioning researcher due to the lack of interest in studying emotions in neuroscience. They argue that labeling animal behavior as fear without considering the subjective experience is problematic, as it leads to disappointment and ineffective drug development. The speaker proposes a three-step approach to treating fear and anxiety by taming the amygdala and hippocampus first, then incorporating talk therapy for a more comprehensive approach.
Multi-State Hierarchical Theory of Consciousness
The podcast also delves into the multi-state hierarchical theory of consciousness. The speaker argues against the first-order theory that attributes conscious awareness solely to specific brain regions, proposing instead that prefrontal cortex plays a crucial role in cognitive re-representation. They discuss the importance of integrating information from different modalities and memory states in prefrontal cortex to create a rich mental model of a situation. The speaker suggests that consciousness arises through a loop between non-conscious and conscious middle models, allowing for refined perception and behaviors. Additionally, they address the challenge of understanding consciousness in artificial intelligence, emphasizing the complexity and evolution of human consciousness that may be difficult to replicate.
In this episode, Xavier Bonilla has a dialogue with Joseph LeDoux about human cognition, consciousness, and existence. They discuss his work with Michael Gazzaniga on split brain patients, the four realms of existence, idea of the self, personality and temperament, and integration information theory. They talk about the extended mind, habits and goal direct behaviors, granular and sub-granular areas of the prefrontal cortex for consciousness, and Tulving’s 3 layers of consciousness. They also discuss cognition as a psychological concept, fear, first order and higher order theory, AI and consciousness, and many more topics.
Joseph LeDoux is the Henry and Lucy Moses Professor of Science at NYU in the Center for Neural Science, and he is the director of the Emotional Brain Institute at NYU. He also a Professor of Psychiatry and Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at NYU Langone Medical School. His work is focused on the brain mechanisms of memory and emotion and he is the author of numerous books including his most recent book, The Four Realms of Existence. He has received numerous awards and he is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the New York Academy of Sciences, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences. He is also the lead singer and songwriter in the rock band, The Amygdaloids.
