The podcast explores the relationship between the de-growth movement and Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), highlighting their compatibility. It discusses power dynamics between the state and corporations, wealth inequality, and the erosion of the middle class. The chapter emphasizes the responsibility of understanding MMT and addresses the ongoing work of the speaker at Kyoto University.
MMT is compatible with both growth-oriented and sustainable strategies.
The shift in power favoring corporations over the state was the result of a successful counter-attack by elites in the early 1970s.
Deep dives
MMT is compatible with both growth and de-growth strategies
MMT can be applied to both strategies of promoting economic growth and pursuing a sustainable de-growth agenda. MMT does not inherently favor one over the other, as it is a lens or framework for understanding the capacities of a currency-issuing government. MMT allows us to comprehend the consequences of using that capacity in various ways, and it is up to individuals and societies to impose their own values or ideologies over that understanding. Ultimately, an MMT understanding is seen as a necessary and sufficient condition for successfully embracing a de-growth agenda and transitioning to a more sustainable future.
Reclaiming the State: How corporations gained power over the state
The shift in power favoring corporations over the state was the result of a successful counter-attack by elites in the early 1970s. During the era of social democratic politics, there was a broader understanding that economic resources should be shared through rights to jobs, social security, public education, and healthcare. However, this sharing arrangement did not align with the interests of corporations and the wealthy, who initiated a campaign to regain their power. They reconfigured the state to serve their own ends, infiltrated the education system, and developed a successful public indoctrination program. This counter-attack against social democratic gains eventually led to the current neoliberal era, with corporations exerting significant influence over society. However, reclaiming the state and challenging corporate power remains a possibility through education, solidarity, and collective action.
Overcoming ignorance and spreading knowledge as a pathway to change
One of the main challenges in effecting social change is widespread ignorance fueled by media manipulation and misinformation. To combat this, it is crucial to continuously educate and spread knowledge about important issues, such as MMT, to empower individuals to challenge existing power structures and narratives. While the climate crisis and other pressing global issues may seem insurmountable, small wins and individual contributions can create a ripple effect of change. By engaging with others, promoting critical thinking, and fostering an understanding of alternative possibilities, such as sustainable lifestyles and fair economic systems, a critical mass of awareness and action can be achieved. While the path forward may be uncertain and arduous, persistently working toward positive change and fostering hope can make a difference.
The challenge of balancing personal hope and grim realities
Navigating the tension between personal hope and the grim realities of the world is a challenge faced by many. While the current state of socio-economic and environmental issues may seem overwhelming, personal actions and choices can still make a positive impact. Embracing sustainable lifestyles, educating oneself, and spreading knowledge to others are important steps toward effecting change at an individual and community level. However, the scope and urgency of global challenges, such as climate change, present significant hurdles that require broader systemic transformations. The intertwined power dynamics of corporations, governments, and the media further complicate the path to change. Nevertheless, maintaining personal hope and an unwavering commitment to education, activism, and solidarity can contribute to fostering a better future.
When someone associates Modern Monetary Theory with left or right wing politics, they’re signaling they know nothing of MMT and are simply associating it with some of its proponents. MMTers are political, MMT is not. Regarding degrowth, this week’s guest, Bill Mitchell, explains:
“The way I think about it is that MMT is compatible with deep, hard industry pollution and massive growth if you want it to be. And it is also compatible with a highly sustainable strategy to reduce our reliance on mass consumption and to divert our economic activity, which we normally think is gross domestic product, to divert that into sustainable products. In other words, radically change the composition of our output.”
In other words, MMT neither supports nor opposes the degrowth agenda. In this episode, Bill describes degrowth as a value system and strategic approach to the future of humanity on the planet.
MMT, on the other hand, is a lens or framework for understanding the capacities of currency issuance and the consequences of using that capacity. He and Steve highlight that MMT is compatible with both growth-oriented and sustainable strategies, and that degrowth policies would require significant investment from the state. They also discuss the challenges and obstacles to implementing a degrowth agenda, including the resistance of powerful vested interests and the potential for military conflict.
The conversation also delves into the historical and political factors that have shaped the current domestic and global politics, including the counterattack by corporations and the wealthy against social democratic majorities in the early 1970s. They discuss the role of ignorance and media manipulation in perpetuating the current system and the importance of education and knowledge in empowering individuals and fostering solidarity movements.
Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/
@billy_blog on Twitter
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