We Aren’t All Soviets Now ... Or Are We? | Jonah Goldberg vs. Niall Ferguson
Jul 11, 2024
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Jonah Goldberg and Niall Ferguson debate over whether America is the new Soviet Union. They discuss declining life expectancy, deaths of despair, illiberalism, and potential Cold War II. The conversation covers excess freedom, fentanyl vs. vodka, and the impact of socialism. Listen in for a thought-provoking showdown between two intellectual heavyweights.
America is facing a crisis similar to late Soviet Russia with declining life expectancy and public morale.
The US differs from the Soviet Union in governance and societal problems, emphasizing personal freedom and liberty.
Concerns arise about illiberal elite capture in American institutions, but pushback against divisive ideologies and potential for improvement exist.
Deep dives
Similarities Between US and Soviet Union Declines
Neil Ferguson argues that the United States bears similarities to the decaying Soviet Union of the 70s and 80s due to declining life expectancy, an increase in mortality rates, and an alienating ideology pushed by elites. He highlights the parallel deterioration in public health and public morale, leading to a crisis similar to that of late Soviet Russia. Ferguson emphasizes the collapse of confidence in American institutions and the disillusionment among ordinary Americans, drawing a comparison to the demoralization experienced by the Soviet population.
Disagreements on US-Soviet Union Comparison
Jonah Goldberg disagrees with Ferguson's comparison, arguing that while acknowledging the serious problems in the US, the sources differ from those of the Soviet Union. Goldberg questions the historical and moral equivalence of the two systems, citing the vast differences in governance and the root causes of societal issues. He emphasizes the importance of not downplaying America's proximity to its ideals, particularly in terms of personal freedom and liberty.
Institutional Capture and Progressive Trends
Ferguson raises concerns about institutional capture by an illiberal elite in sectors like academia, technology, and publishing, highlighting the persistence of divisive ideologies. While noting some positive trends and pushback against illiberal movements, Ferguson warns against premature declarations of victory. Goldberg counters by pointing out signs of improvement and the self-correcting capacity of democracies, emphasizing America's resilience in addressing its challenges by accurately identifying and addressing underlying problems.
American Problems Manifested Differently on Left and Right
The speaker discusses how American problems are perceived differently on the left and right, highlighting the rise of illiberalism on both sides. The lack of viable political candidates offering solutions to profound issues and the absence of serious political debates on public finances and health are noted. The handling of the COVID pandemic is critiqued, emphasizing the lack of accountability and inquest into failures, drawing analogies to the Chernobyl disaster.
Analyzing America's Degeneracy and Potential Solutions
The discussion delves into the comparison between the United States and the Soviet Union in addressing issues of degeneracy and societal decline. There is an exploration of the challenges faced by America in maintaining its founding principles and addressing cultural and societal malaise. The need to differentiate the unique problems faced by the United States from historical analogies is emphasized, along with a call to embrace American exceptionalism and moral capital to navigate the nation's challenges.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to the octagon! The summer of 2024 has been one of epic feuds: Kendrick Lamar vs. Drake, Joe Biden vs. George Clooney, and, most notably, Jonah vs. Hoover Institute fellow and Free Press columnist Niall Ferguson.
Jonah and Niall duke it out over the latter’s controversial claim: that America is the new Soviet Union. Jonah says nyet. Questions fly and accusations abound. Why is U.S. life expectancy declining? Is Jonah in denial? Is Niall just a provocateur? This match-up covers it all: the distinction between excess freedom and excess repression, why fentanyl is different than vodka, what causes deaths of despair, how illiberalism shapes both institutions and social outcomes, and what Cold War II could look like. As for the title-winner? We’ll let you be the judge, comrade.
