#191 – Daniel Schmachtenberger: Steering Civilization Away from Self-Destruction
Jun 14, 2021
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Daniel Schmachtenberger, a philosopher and founding member of the Consilience Project, delves into the dynamics of civilization and self-destruction. He discusses the consequences of humanity's historical cycles and the urgent need for social innovation to avoid repeating past mistakes. The conversation weaves through themes like collective intelligence, the delicate balance of creation and destruction, and alternative methods to resolve conflict. Schmachtenberger emphasizes the importance of community, resilience, and the implications of technology on our future.
The potential self-terminating nature of human civilization due to catastrophic risks posed by exponential technological growth.
The unintended consequences and externalities of technological advancements.
Creating a proactive and resilient future by addressing catastrophic risks and associated externalities.
Three modes of a meaningful life: being, doing, and becoming.
The importance of global and local governance for a balanced and sustainable future.
The need for decentralization of power and decision-making to improve governance and expand the concept of nationhood.
Deep dives
Emergence of Complexity from Simple Rules
Complexity can emerge from simple rules, as seen in cellular automata and other systems. The behavior of these systems can exhibit incredible complexity and intricate patterns that are not always predictable from the underlying rules. The emergence of complexity in these systems is beautiful and awe-inspiring, showcasing the inherent creativity and diversity that can arise from simplicity.
Uniqueness and Imitation within Human Civilization
Humans are unique in their ability to imitate and learn from each other at a higher level than other species. While imitation is not exclusive to humans, our capacity for learning and cultural transmission is unparalleled. This uniqueness is reflected in our extended childhood and neoteny, as we need time to learn and acquire knowledge from our social environment. Mimetic desire, as proposed by Girard, suggests that our desires and wants are imitative and based on what others desire. This can lead to conflict and competition when we desire the same things and cannot obtain them without taking them away from others.
The Role of Mimesis in Human Development
Mimesis, or learning through imitation, plays a significant role in human development and the acquisition of language, skills, and desires. Babies observe and imitate others to learn language and behavior. Through mimesis, we internalize the desires of others, shaping our own desires based on what we see in society. This process of imitating desires can create conflict when multiple individuals want the same thing and cannot have it without taking it away from others.
Understanding the Risks of Technology and Civilization
The first main idea discussed in the podcast is the recognition of the potential self-terminating nature of human civilization due to catastrophic risks posed by the exponential growth of technology. The speaker highlights the historical pattern of civilizations rising and falling throughout human history, emphasizing that previous societies have faced existential risks, both from external factors and self-termination. The advent of more powerful technological capabilities, such as nuclear weapons and bioengineering, has increased the scale and complexity of potential catastrophic risks. The speaker notes the need to understand and address these risks to ensure the long-term survival and progress of human civilization.
The Influence of Technology on Society and Externalities
The second main idea explores the unintended consequences and externalities of technological advancements. The speaker highlights how advancements in technology often result in second and third order effects that can have significant negative impacts on society, the environment, and intergroup dynamics. Examples such as oil extraction leading to climate change and social media platforms unintentionally fueling political polarization and misinformation are discussed. The increasing interdependency and fragility of global networks and supply chains further exacerbate the potential risks and consequences of technological development. The importance of understanding and addressing these externalities is emphasized in order to mitigate their potentially destructive impacts.
Creating a Protopic Future: Acknowledging Externalities and Patterns
The third main idea suggests the necessity of creating a proactive and resilient future by acknowledging and addressing catastrophic risks and the associated externalities. The speaker proposes the need for social technologies that measure and consider the second, third, and higher-order effects of new technological advancements. By explicitly evaluating and actively managing the externalities, potential risks can be identified and mitigated. The goal is to design and implement solutions that anticipate and prevent negative consequences, ensuring a balance between progress, individual well-being, and environmental sustainability. Ultimately, the speaker argues that embracing a rigorous empathy-based approach, which considers the impacts of technology on various aspects of society, can lead to a more stable and prosperous future for humanity.
A Meaningful Life: Being, Doing, and Becoming
A meaningful life is characterized by three modes: being, doing, and becoming. The mode of being centers around appreciating the beauty of life in the present moment and takes in the intrinsic meaningfulness of experience. The mode of doing involves adding to the beauty of life through actions, such as creating art or contributing to the well-being of others. The mode of becoming focuses on personal growth and deepening one's capacity for both being and doing. A meaningful life involves a virtuous relationship between these three modes, where being grounds the experience, doing adds to the beauty of life, and becoming deepens both being and doing. Death plays a role in emphasizing the urgency of time and encourages individuals to make the most of their lives. It also fosters a sense of connection and interdependence with future generations. Overall, a meaningful life is a balance between experiencing the beauty of life, contributing to its well-being, and continually growing and evolving.
The Role of Governance in Society
Governance in society can take various forms, ranging from individual to global. The future of governance should strive for a balance between global and local governance. Global governance is necessary for addressing issues that go beyond national boundaries, such as environmental concerns, while local governance allows for more direct participation and decision-making at the community level. Effective governance requires checks and balances, transparency, and informed power flows between different levels of governance. Cities may play a larger role in the future, as they represent real communities with shared values and interests. Ultimately, the goal of governance should be to foster well-being, connection, and sustainable development for all.
The Complex Dynamics of State and Anarchy
When it comes to the state, there is no black-and-white answer. While the complete dissolution of the state might not be desirable, the current state of governance can be improved. Decentralization of power and decision-making should be a goal, reducing the influence of anonymous structures and increasing transparency. This could involve reducing the size and scope of government, creating more accountable and inclusive forms of governance, and expanding the concept of nationhood beyond geographic borders to include common ideas and values. Both individual agency and collective responsibility are important in achieving a more balanced and just society.
The Intersection of Self-Empowerment and Collective Good
The speaker reflects on the valuable lessons learned from their father, who emphasized the importance of self-empowerment in service of a greater purpose. They recall moments of making love, watching sunsets, listening to music, and feeling the breeze, realizing that these moments are worth experiencing the whole of life, even with its pains. The speaker expresses gratitude for the countless singular moments and acknowledges that suffering, when observed with clarity, contains its own beauty.
Applying Exponential Tech to Create Better Social Tech
The podcast delves into the idea of applying exponential technologies, such as digital platforms, to develop social technologies that can facilitate emergent order and participatory governance at different scales. The speaker discusses the need for comprehensive education in the science of government and the importance of transparency and control in creating better social tech. They emphasize the potential of technology to support increased comprehensive education and information sharing to empower people to influence corporations and nation states or even build new social institutions.
Recognizing the Beauty in Life's Singular Moments
The speaker reflects on their experiences and the overwhelming sense of gratitude they have for the unique, beautiful moments they have encountered, whether it be making love, observing a sunset, or appreciating the presence of loved ones in conversation. They highlight the importance of being present in these moments and realizing the infinite meaning inherent in every singular experience. The speaker suggests that even the most mundane aspects of life can hold profound beauty if one can quiet the mind and truly observe.
OUTLINE:
Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time.
(00:00) – Introduction
(08:05) – Aliens and UFOs
(26:50) – Collective intelligence of human civilization
(34:46) – Consciousness
(46:08) – How much computation does the human brain perform?
(49:47) – Humans vs ants
(57:04) – Humans are apex predators
(1:04:08) – Girard’s Mimetic Theory of Desire
(1:24:05) – We can never completely understand reality
(1:27:29) – Self-terminating systems
(1:37:52) – Catastrophic risk
(2:08:04) – Adding more love to the world
(2:35:29) – How to build a better world
(2:52:41) – Meaning of life
(3:00:23) – Death
(3:06:04) – The role of government in society
(3:23:29) – Exponential growth of technology
(4:09:10) – Lessons from my father
(4:14:46) – Even suffering is filled with beauty
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