The Smart Economy Podcast: Real-World Blockchain Applications with Crypto, DeFi, NFTs, and DAOs Why Everything Will Be Tokenized: Spark's Path to Mainstream DeFi Adoption
Jul 3, 2025
55:10
In this episode of The Smart Economy Podcast, host Dylan Grabowski is joined by Sam MacPherson, CEO and co-founder of Phoenix Labs, the R&D company behind the multi-chain DeFi platform Spark.
What you’ll learn:
- How Spark Liquidity Layer helps solve cross-chain fragmentation by automatically deploying capital across multiple L2s
- Why the transition from DAI to USDS represents a strategic move to capture mainstream adoption
- The mechanics behind Spark's APY generation through diversified yield sources
- How institutional adoption is driving DeFi innovation through products like Coinbase's Bitcoin Borrow
- How Spark evaluates and onboards new L2 networks based on user metrics and market demand
And much more!
Sam MacPherson is the CEO and co-founder of Phoenix Labs, an R&D group dedicated to building the Spark protocol ecosystem. With over 20 years of software engineering experience spanning video game development and DeFi, Sam joined MakerDAO's protocol engineering team in 2021 during its transition to DAO governance, where he wrote critical smart contracts managing billions in assets. As a key architect of the Spark protocol, which has scaled to $3.6 billion in deployed capital, Sam leads initiatives to solve multi-chain liquidity fragmentation and develop innovative yield-bearing stablecoin solutions.
Episode Highlights:
- [09:30] Stablecoins as Crypto's Killer Product
Sam Macpherson explains why stablecoins have emerged as one of crypto's strongest product-market fits, with supply consistently growing through both bull and bear markets. The demand is driven by real utility, particularly in developing nations where people need access to stable USD-denominated stores of value and efficient international transfers. While Tether and Circle dominate the high-liquidity portion of the market, Spark is focused on yield-bearing stablecoins that allow users to earn at least the risk-free rate on idle funds. During bull markets, these yields can reach double-digit percentages, providing significant value to users. This sustainable growth demonstrates how stablecoins solve genuine problems around accessing stable value and generating yields on savings. - [16:24] Spark's Automated Capital Allocation System
The Spark Liquidity Layer has scaled to $3.6B in just months, becoming the largest on-chain capital allocator by leveraging multiple yield sources. The system automatically deploys capital across lending markets, treasury bills, and exchange funding rates to maximize risk-adjusted returns. Rather than users having to actively manage their positions, Spark handles the complexity of finding and capturing the best yields. This automated approach allows even those unfamiliar with DeFi to earn competitive yields while maintaining the security of their principal. The platform continues expanding its reach, recently adding support for tokenized T-bills through BlackRock, SuperState, and Janus Henderson. - [34:38] Making DeFi Accessible Through Sandbox Testing
Recognizing that DeFi can be intimidating for newcomers, Spark created a sandbox environment where users can practice with $10,000 in test tokens before risking real money. This approach allows people to familiarize themselves with the platform's features and understand how yield generation works without fear of making costly mistakes. The interface is intentionally simplified to focus on core functionalities like deposits and withdrawals rather than complex trading features. By prioritizing user safety and education, Spark aims to make DeFi yields accessible to mainstream users who may be intimidated by more complex protocols. - [37:59] Three-Ring Approach to User Adoption
Spark employs a strategic three-ring model to capture different user segments, from DeFi natives to traditional finance participants. The inner ring serves existing crypto users familiar with decentralized protocols, while the middle ring targets users of centralized platforms through infrastructure partnerships. The outer ring focuses on traditional finance integration through products like ETFs, making yield-bearing stablecoins accessible through familiar investment vehicles. This layered approach allows Spark to meet users at their comfort level while gradually expanding DeFi adoption. The strategy is already showing success, with Spark providing 80% of the capital for Coinbase's Bitcoin borrow product.
Previous guests include: Rusty Matveev, Chief Strategy Officer at Calaxy; Andrew Lawrence, CEO and Co-Founder of Censo; Zac Townsend, CEO and Co-Founder of Meanwhile; Jesper Johansen, CEO and Co-Founder of Northstake; Tama Churchouse, COO of Cumberland Labs; Holly Wood of Boson Protocol; Sid Powell of Maple Finance; Chad Barraford of THORChain; and many others.
Check out our three most downloaded episodes:
- Laying the Groundwork for a Billion-User Blockchain with Rich Rines, Contributor at Core DAO
- Staking the Future: From Blockchain Beginnings to Institutional Innovations with Chen Zhuling of RockX
- The Unstoppable Nature of Blockchain: A Conversation with Bonart Mati of Obligate
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