Michael Lewis on Bravery in Politics and Why Elon Musk Seems so "Disturbed"
Apr 6, 2025
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Michael Lewis, renowned author of The Big Short and Moneyball, joins to discuss his latest work, Who is Government? He highlights the unsung heroes of civil service whose crucial roles often go unrecognized. Lewis dissects the damaging stereotypes of bureaucrats, emphasizing the importance of reliable information. He critiques Elon Musk's approach to governance and examines the complex dynamics of political leadership. Additionally, he calls attention to the critical narrative of government effectiveness, advocating for stories that reshape public perception.
Michael Lewis emphasizes the vital role of civil servants whose uncelebrated work significantly contributes to public safety and welfare.
The political landscape influences government operations, often creating a culture of fear that undermines the effectiveness of civil service organizations.
Trust in governmental institutions has eroded due to perceived incompetence, highlighting the urgent need for transparency and accountability to rebuild public confidence.
Deep dives
The Role of Government in Data Collection
The government plays a crucial role in collecting and analyzing data that informs public policy and education effectiveness. Recent decisions, such as the closure of the Department of Education's research arm, have raised concerns about the loss of vital longitudinal data that tracks educational outcomes. This data collection is foundational for understanding how to allocate resources and address gaps in the education system. The shutting down of these operations risks undermining efforts to improve educational performance across the nation.
Unsung Heroes in Public Service
Michael Lewis emphasizes the importance of recognizing the everyday heroes within government who work diligently, often behind the scenes, to serve the public good. These civil servants, like Arthur A. Allen from the Coast Guard, have dedicated their careers to solving complex problems, such as developing algorithms to predict the drift of objects at sea for search and rescue operations. Their contributions, although frequently overlooked, provide tangible benefits to society, including saving lives. Highlighting their stories serves to humanize government workers and counter negative narratives surrounding public service.
The Impact of Political Leadership on Bureaucracy
The conversation explores how the political landscape influences the effectiveness of governmental institutions. Political appointees and their mandates can significantly affect the morale and function of civil service organizations, often leading to a culture of fear and uncertainty among employees. This dynamic complicates the capacity of these organizations to fulfill their missions effectively, as seen during the Trump administration's attempts to dismantle various governance structures. The challenge remains in balancing political oversight with the need for a stable and efficient bureaucratic environment that can operate independently.
The Nature of Trust in Government
Trust in government institutions has eroded over time, largely due to perceived incompetence and political manipulation. This decline in trust makes it more challenging for government officials to engage the public in meaningful ways, as citizens often question motives and the validity of information. The discussion highlights the need for transparency and accountability in government practices to rebuild this trust. Restoring faith in government requires not only better communication but also a commitment to ethical principles within public service.
The Challenges of Defining Courage in Governance
Courage in government is often shaped by individual narratives and societal expectations, impacting how civil servants make decisions in challenging environments. Individuals like Charity Dean exemplify how personal conviction can drive one to take bold actions despite potential backlash, highlighting the need for a supportive culture that fosters bravery. However, systemic pressures can make it difficult for many to act courageously, creating a landscape where conformity is rewarded over integrity. Encouraging a willingness to challenge the status quo in government requires cultivating environments that celebrate brave actions, thereby redefining the norms surrounding accountability.
Michael Lewis, acclaimed author of The Big Short, Moneyball and The Fifth Risk joins Lovett to discuss his most recent book, Who is Government? Lewis and his coauthors profile the civil servants whose thankless and unglamorous work prevents mines from collapsing, castaways from drowning, and rare diseases from killing people. He and Jon talk about why it’s so important to break down the “bureaucrat” stereotype right now, why Lewis is convinced Elon Musk has no idea how to run DOGE, and what leads the people he writes about to stand up to Trump or succumb to their personal ambition.
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