In this episode, Russell Moore talks to poet Christian Wiman about his journey of faith, the power of poetry, and the role of joy. They discuss the poetry in Scripture, Jesus' engagement with suffering, and how poetry can enhance preaching. They also explore the Book of Job, healing wounds, and the humor in biblical stories. The conversation covers topics such as fiction in storytelling, the value of memorization, and the unexpected joy revealed in a poem about despair.
Poetry can serve as a transformative tool to access dimensions of experience and reality that we may deny in our lives, providing a path towards embracing faith and confronting despair.
Artistic mediums like poetry and film have the ability to capture moments of transcendence and reveal glimpses of a deeper reality within the ordinary experiences of life, helping us become more aware of the joy and happiness that often goes overlooked.
Deep dives
Exploring Despair and the Power of Poetry
In this podcast episode, Russell Moore interviews Ben Wyman, a poet and author of Zero at the Bone. The conversation revolves around the theme of despair, with Wyman discussing different types of despair explored in his book, including existential, environmental, racial, and social despair. Wyman shares his personal journey from growing up in a religious bubble to becoming an agnostic and later embracing faith through poetry. He talks about the transformative power of writing poetry, which allowed him to access dimensions of experience and reality that he denied in his life. The episode also touches on the significance of the Book of Job, the challenges of understanding and interpreting the Bible, and the importance of experiencing joy and confronting despair in our lives.
Discovering Intuition and Coherence in Life
The podcast episode delves into the movie 'The Tree of Life' as a discussion point on the intuition of cohering in an instant. Wyman talks about the film's ability to capture moments of transcendence and glimpses of a deeper reality within the ordinary experiences of life. He shares how art, like poetry and film, can arrest those moments and help us become more aware of the joy and happiness that we often overlook. The conversation explores the notion of unconscious joy, the challenges of fully perceiving and experiencing God's presence, and the ways in which artistic mediums can provide glimpses into the vertical dimension of joy.
The Power of Memory and Discipline in Poetry
During the podcast, Wyman discusses the importance of memorizing poems as a discipline and its impact on the mind. He highlights the significance of reading poetry aloud, which helps in understanding and appreciating its rhythm and meaning. Wyman shares his own memorization technique, starting with memorizing one line at a time and gradually visualizing the entire poem. He emphasizes the value of memorization in providing a solid mental anchor and counteracting the distractions and challenges of daily life. The conversation also touches on the accessibility of poetry for people with different levels of familiarity and the rewards of engaging with poetry as a reader.
Poetry, Preaching, and the Elusive Nature of Meaning
The podcast delves into the relationship between poetry and preaching, particularly in terms of interpreting and engaging with biblical text. Wyman encourages preachers to embrace the element of bafflement and honesty when approaching poetic and biblical texts that may defy simple analysis or interpretation. The conversation explores the enduring power of parables and poetry to convey truths that go beyond precise meaning, highlighting the importance of experiencing and engaging with these texts in a holistic and intuitive manner. Wyman also reflects on the challenges of properly reading and understanding the Bible, particularly in distinguishing between fiction and reality within biblical narratives.
That was the poem that a seven-year-old Christian Wiman handed his pastor—during the altar call, no less. The young Wiman didn’t wait for a response or say a word, he just ran back to his pew. Soon after, the pastor published Wiman’s poem in the Southern Baptist Convention’s newsletter.
“I gave him a poem,” Wiman says on this episode of The Russell Moore Show. “That was my gesture of salvation.”
In the decades since, Wiman has wrestled with his faith, suffered from cancer, and continued to find meaning in writing poetry. On this episode, he and Moore discuss the poetry in Scripture, how Jesus engaged with suffering, and how poetry can help pastors in their preaching. They talk about why poetry can be intimidating, entry points for engaging it, and how poetry can reveal the joy in our lives.
