The Mythcreant Podcast 528 – Keeping Your Lovebirds Apart
We love to yell “now kiss!” when two lovebirds get a little too close together. But it turns out that if they did that immediately, a lot of the story would be over. For a love story to work, there must be something pushing the characters together, but also something pulling them apart. That second half is often neglected, so we’re here to talk about it.
Transcript
Generously transcribed by Elizabeth. Volunteer to transcribe a podcast.
Chris: You’re listening to the Mythcreants podcast with your hosts Oren Ashkenazi, Chris Winkle, and Bunny.
[opening theme]
Oren: And welcome everyone to another episode of the Mythcreants podcast. I’m Oren, and with me today is:
Chris: Chris.
Oren: And:
Bunny: Bunny.
Oren: Hooray, Bunny’s back! We couldn’t keep her and the podcast apart.
Bunny: Yeah! [she laughs] It wasn’t you, it was me. I had to break your poor hearts by leaving. I did think we were gelling pretty well, but then I thought maybe we should be afraid.
Chris: Was it for our own good?
Bunny: It was for all of our good. And I couldn’t just tell you that. I had to make you suffer, because otherwise you’d try to get back with me, but I couldn’t stay away.
Chris: You had to make it as dramatic as possible and totally break our hearts to make sure that we’re safe. All of us.
Bunny: Exactly. I know what’s best.
Oren: Meanwhile, I’ve been writing a story that is about two fictional characters who are perfect for each other and they have great chemistry. Everyone wants to see them together so they immediately get together and the story’s over, goodnight.
Bunny: Oh, I don’t know, Oren, that doesn’t sound like it has a lot of [dramatically] tension.
Chris: My romance, I’ve got this love interest and I want him to be super hot, which means that he has to be the most powerful, not just person, but just thing in the universe, so nothing can defeat him. And he just worships the ground the main character walks on. There’s just nothing that can keep them apart because there can’t be, because then he would be weak and unattractive.
Bunny: That’s normal.
Oren: He has to be the most powerful. He can’t be less powerful than that.
Bunny: He probably owns a kingdom or universe, or at least a corporation.
Oren: And it’s a special kingdom. It’s stronger than the other kingdom. So don’t think that another kingdom might be an obstacle here.
Chris: And it’s like the dark kingdom. But all the people who call it evil are just haters.
Oren: They’re just jealous.
Bunny: He’s gonna have to overturn the law that forbids love though.
Oren: That’s gonna take him like five seconds once he decides to do it.
Bunny: I don’t know, as king, famously unable to overturn laws. You never know.
Oren: Yeah. It’s like the sultan from Aladdin and it turns out that he could have just changed the law to not do this thing he didn’t want to do the whole time. Today we’re talking about keeping your lovebirds apart, because this is a problem that a lot of authors have, where they don’t have good reasons that their lovebirds are not together yet, and it’s weird. And I haven’t actually read a story yet that just has them get together immediately, and then it ends. Probably because you can’t sell a book if you do that, so there’s a bit of selection bias, but, instead, you end up with a bunch of really contrived reasons or sometimes no reason at all, which is very frustrating. And also I have a blog post on this, so if I run outta stuff to say, I can just read from the blog post. So I hope you’re all ready for that.
Bunny: We’ll be reading it verbatim.
Chris: I’ve seen some other romances where the couple just keep getting closer and nothing is added to keep the level of romantic tension up. It just slowly becomes inevitable, even though they aren’t officially together yet, and they have some reasons. I can imagine that somebody who’s just really attached to these characters might want to read a second half of a novel where they just hang out and date each other. [laughter] But it’s not me. It’s not me. I would prefer to keep the romantic tension up in the relationship.
Bunny: I’ve definitely read books where there’s a little will they, won’t they? And then they get together and then it’s less interesting after they’re together. Digging Up Love was one of those, partly because they were so horny during the will they, won’t they section, then suddenly they’re kind of chaste and demure as soon as they’re in the relationship and it just felt weird.
Oren: Huh, that’s a strange choice. That’s what the kids call an unforced error. The weird one is like, there’s a lot of discourse about why don’t you just have them get together? Why do you keep them apart? And the reason is that a lot of love stories, the interesting part is watching them get together. I’m not saying you can’t do it differently. I’m just saying that that is the default, or at least a very common way that it’s done. And there’s a reason why on television shows, couples often get less interesting once they’re together, because what is there to do? And the alternative is often we create a bunch of contrived conflict in the relationship and that’s not fun to watch. You just have to figure this out ahead of time. You have to decide: how long do you want to keep your lovebirds apart, and what is the thing that is gonna make that happen.
Chris: Also, the thing that you see in TV shows and other places is that once the couple hooks up, and you’ve got the next season and they’re together, you just don’t get the same level of romantic tension when they’re a happy couple together. They’re not saying that TV shows should constantly be splitting couples up or killing one of them or whatever else TV shows do, just that there is a reason that they do it.
Bunny: I do feel like we have less models of telling a story within an ongoing relationship rather than forming or breaking the relationship. I feel like most stories that start with a couple in a relationship have the tension be: will they stay in the relationship or will they be torn asunder? And then romance stories are like, will they get together? And they probably will, and then they do, and then it ends. There’s not as many stories where they’re in a stable relationship and they go over bumps, but the question isn’t when they’re gonna divorce.
Chris: I think part of the issue is it’s similar to having a character arc in a sequel once you resolve a character’s character arc, as you gave them a problem and then you solved that problem, and then it can be a little contrived. They have no more emotional problems for you to solve. It’s not that it’s impossible for you to create new ones. Something could happen that makes a character insecure. Similarly, something could happen that creates a wedge between the couple, but it’s just less natural. I think with external problems, it’s a little easier to imagine, oh yeah, a new bad guy shows up or something, and people just have more trouble with that. And also, sometimes we don’t wanna ruin the happily ever after. Now, granted, TV shows are doing it anyway, so you might as well.
Oren: If the couple is already together, there’s a few reasons why that is less popular. If it’s a sequel, to a certain extent, it’s gonna feel like you’re retreading old ground. It’s like, hang on, we just watched them resolve this arc and get together. Now you’re gonna undo that or threaten to. That’s less fun. And if it’s not a sequel, if it’s just a standalone, I’ve seen several of those, but they don’t usually get marketed as romance. I suspect it’s because the getting together is the part where you can inject a lot of conflict and still have it be fun, whereas it’s harder to do that in an established relationship and not have it be like, oh, well that seems like they have pretty serious problems. Not impossible, but harder.
Chris: Or you’re taking away something that you already gave the audience.
Bunny: The whole point of a getting together arc is showing why they’re better together than they are apart. Then if you start being like, oh, but what if they aren’t so good together? Then it kind of feels like you’re going back on that. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case, but especially if it’s a sequel after having gotten them together, then I can see why it feels that way for sure.
Oren: So anyway, let’s talk about some solutions, both the contrived ones that authors reach for, and then the real ones that you should use instead.
Chris: Do you wanna start with the contrived ones? I know you’re just itching to.
Oren: I have so many contrived ones. My favorite is just the sort of vague, like, I’m not ready yet, which–it can work if they actually aren’t ready. If you can show me why they aren’t ready. But most of the time it doesn’t work, because authors love to make their characters really in love with each other. Like [emphasis] really they want each other. I guess then what else needs to happen before you’re ready? What is it? Show it to me. And they don’t have anything, because if they had something, it would get in the way of them being super in love with each other.
Chris: It’s the whole thing where the greater the motivation, the greater the obstacle has to be. The greater the motivation they have to get together, the greater the obstacle has to be. And “I’m not ready,” especially if you can’t in any way demonstrate what that means practically–what are you afraid will happen? What are you not comfortable with? There could be a variety of things, but again, writers have trouble sometimes with bringing those emotional problems to life, especially since you have to actually get specific. It’s not enough to say I’m not ready. Okay, why aren’t you ready? Can you illustrate it for us a little bit? Is there some backstory to this? Is there a specific fear you have? And make it feel a little bit more concrete and tangible.
Bunny: One story that I think did this pretty well, and admittedly this is pretty heavy baggage that a lot of stories, especially in egalitarian settings, obviously wanna be careful dealing with, is Heartstopper, where one of the characters is bisexual but doesn’t really know it yet. And the other character is openly gay, but when it was found out that he was gay, he got bullied relentlessly for it. So yeah, it makes sense that you would not be ready for a relationship since the last person you had a gay fling with turned into your worst bully, because it’s kind of tragic and homophobic in that school.
Oren: Maybe if I join the bullies, they will accept me.
Bunny: Ah, surely, surely.
Chris: And so there could be a specific dynamic where, okay, I’m not ready yet because I don’t feel safe.
Oren: That would be a reason.
Chris: And then you have something to work towards more.
Bunny: I don’t know what’s going to happen and the other person doesn’t know what to make of these feelings that are a crush, but he doesn’t really recognize that yet. So he is not gonna be the first one to say, let’s kiss.
Oren: There are lots of actual reasons people might not be ready. It just tends to get used as a vague excuse when the author doesn’t really have one. Another one that is in this big bucket of vague quasi-excuses is “I can’t give into my feeling.” Why? Why not? [Chris laughs]
Bunny: And chances are you already have if you’re drooling over each other.
Chris: That one’s especially funny because is there something wrong with giving into your feelings?
Oren: I don’t know. Are you a Vulcan or something?
Bunny: I’ve taken an a vow of no feelings.
Chris: I’m afraid I will go through pon farr if I give in.
Oren: Possible. There are ways that might make sense, but most of the time they don’t. There’s just a vague “well, I’m gonna resist being in the relationship because that’s what the book says to do.” It’s in the script.
Bunny: Maybe we should be afraid.
Oren: Yeah, maybe we should be afraid. [he laughs] Good old Star Trek writers.
Chris: For anyone listening who doesn’t know, we’ve probably mentioned it before, but this is from a TNG episode that had a romance between Picard and Crusher that was extremely romantic, and you thought that they were about to hook up. And then suddenly Crusher says “We should be afraid,” and then just leaves the room.
Oren: She’s gone now.
Chris: There’s no follow up for the show on this at all.
Oren: Look, I saw the result of them actually being together in the new Picard show, and let me tell you, they should have been afraid. [laughter]
Bunny: Listeners, if you’re on the tail end of a relationship and you’re not sure how to break it off one day, just go up to your partner and be like, “Maybe we should be afraid,” and then walk out. There you go. Boom. Broken up.
Oren: If they’re not a Star Trek fan, then they will probably get into Star Trek from trying to figure out what the hell you just said, so win. And if they are a Star Trek fan, they will have to respect your reference game. They won’t have a choice. Another common one is “I don’t even like them,” and okay, that can work in the right circumstances, but often characters who say this are making out an awful lot for someone you don’t like.
Bunny: Well, this is the fake dating. Don’t besmirch fake dating like this. They have to smooch or it won’t be convincing. [laughter]
Chris: I have to say I am really tired of the whole “What’s wrong with me?” statement from a viewpoint character in a romance. It’s like, okay, it’s obvious what’s going on with you, and the fifth time you say it, I’m just wondering why you have not caught on yet.
Bunny: [loopy voice] What’s wrong with me? What? What’s wrong with me? It’s love.
Oren: Also, it’s just why do they respond to being super into somebody with that statement in the first place? Can you show me in the narrative where that is coming from? And usually the answer is no. There’s often like a vague, “Oh, well I can’t have sex with that guy ’cause I’d be a slut,” is usually what the implication is because it’s almost always the female character in a hetero relationship that is saying this. But is that really what you’re interested in here? Do you really wanna explore that? Because chances are that’s just gonna go away the moment that it’s time for them to get together, and suddenly it won’t be a big deal.
Bunny: Suddenly it’s all heaving bosoms.
Oren: Look, if that’s the thing you are interested in, if you wanna discuss the way that society represses people, especially women, in your story, fine. I can see that working really well. But I have found that most stories are not actually interested in that topic and just kind of vaguely hint at it as a reason why they can’t bang yet, but later it won’t matter.
Bunny: Well, it’s the Digging Up Love frustration where they seem to want to tear their clothes off at every moment and then they get together and they’re like, actually, we’re both good Catholics. They don’t say that. They do discuss being Catholic, and I have to assume that’s why they don’t just tear their clothes off at that point.
Oren: Everyone knows Catholics are big fans of premarital lusting, but postmarital, no.
Bunny: Well, they just started dating, so it’s like pre-dating lust.
Oren: Uh, sure. The other one that is just kind of in the bucket is various flavors of “Your love is banned,” because there are, again, many external reasons why you can’t get together with people. And there are so many, and many of them are very good. But for whatever reason, authors are often being like, oh, it’s because in this world, anyone who is too in love isn’t allowed to date. Or the other thing, where they’ll give a real reason, but then not really feel like resolving it. Oh, in this world, people of different social classes aren’t allowed to date, until it’s time for them to date and now that’s not a big deal anymore.
Bunny: There can be “our particular type of love is forbidden,” but you gotta look into that a bit more.
Oren: Are you really gonna grapple with that? If you are using structural oppression to keep your lovebirds apart, it can absolutely work. But that’s a pretty serious topic. Are you prepared for the implications? And often the answer is no. Or my favorite is when suddenly authority figures who have no reason to oppose the marriage suddenly act all like they don’t like it. We were just watching Bridgeton, and mild spoilers for season three, there’s a scene later where Penn and Colin are getting ready to get together and suddenly Penn’s mom, who is basically just the most mercenary character you’ve ever seen, is like, no, I’m angry that my daughter is gonna marry this super wealthy, well connected guy from a really important family. I’m mad about that. And it is like the opposite of your motivation. Have you never read the Vulcan dictates of poetics? [laughter]
Bunny: Send your child into the ring with the pizza spatula. You know you want to.
Chris: Oh no.
Bunny: I think another flavor of love is forbidden is the lovebirds being on opposite sides of a conflict. And I think this is maybe the most obvious one to use, just because they’re on opposite sides of the conflict. They have different loyalties. It’s kind of a built-in reason why they wouldn’t get together. And it could be something as simple as they own rival bakeries, or it could be as big as they’re on the opposite sides of the war. However, please do not make one of them essentially a Confederate.
Chris: It’s okay. They do all the killing off screen.
Bunny: If they’re on opposite sides of a war. You have to be careful not to make one side very much the evil side.
Chris: Oh, I hate that one.
Oren: Yeah, or like the witch hunter and the witch. Six Of Crows. I’m looking at you. Don’t get me wrong, it’s probably also possible to have a story where one of them is on the wrong side and realizes that they’re on the wrong side and changes sides. I’m not gonna say you couldn’t do that. But if you do that, that’s very different from “we have two equally valid reasons to be in this conflict and they are making it harder for us to be in love.” That is a very different story.
Chris: A lot of storytellers just have trouble coming up with great conflicts. They don’t know what to do there.
Oren: Which is funny because to me, they’re the easiest thing to come up with in the world. I don’t know. I don’t get it.
Chris: Well, your knowledge of politics and history is probably contributing to that
Oren: Ehhh.
Bunny: Everyone should study the Byzantines.
Oren: So many blindings, my god.
Chris: As you add an airship to your story, of course.
Oren: A Byzantine airship. It makes sense, don’t question it.
Bunny: Piloted by a stern silent older woman captain. [Chris laughs]
Oren: Hey, hey now. Hey, I didn’t come on this podcast to be personally attacked like this.
Bunny: Look, if Chris is allowed to pull our short stories out of the muck and scold us for them, I think I can have this one.
Oren: Yeah, but why isn’t Chris the one being targeted? [he laughs]
Chris: [evilly] Excellent. Yes, yes. My plan is unfolding.
Oren: Yeah, it’s worked out great. Perfectly masterminded by Chris.
Bunny: That’s true. I need to get back at her someday. Oh no. We’re being pitted against each other.
Chris: In any case, one thing that I look for if I have a client that needs obstacles is trying to match the type of obstacle to the dynamics that the writer wants for the romance. Because if you suggest an obstacle that is just not how they want their romance to feel, then they are not gonna wanna do it. So I start thinking about, okay, what kind of romance do you like, and then trying to find a matching obstacle is a good place to go if obstacles haven’t been appealing to you. So for instance, if you want a couple that is 100% perfect together, and they never have any problems with each other, any conflict with each other, they just look at each other and they’re instantly in love–then you basically have to use external obstacles. You need a star crossed romance of the type we’re talking about where they’re Romeo and Juliet or something like that. Because now you can’t have anything that’s about them, so it has to all be about their situation and others that are trying to keep them apart. Which also makes it a problem if the guy can crush armies with his fist. In that case, maybe make him cursed or something so that he’s like at 10% power, so he can’t crush armies with his fist.
Oren: He totally could if he could get rid of this curse. Once he gets rid of this curse, he’s gonna come over there.
Bunny: He needs a plucky heroine to get rid of the curse for him.
Oren: But assuming that that’s not an issue for you, if you are looking for a relatively easy, low impact, external thing keeping the characters apart, family opposition is a good one. With a family opposition you only have to change the minds or escape from a small number of people. This isn’t the same as being on opposite sides of a war, which is gonna be complicated, or being kept apart because people from your two different ethnic groups aren’t allowed to date, because that’s really hard to get past. This is like, yeah, our parents have been feuding because we are both of equal… whatever that is in fair Verona.
Bunny: Where we lay our scene, two families, both alike in…
Oren: Dignity! That’s the one! Were alike in dignity.
Bunny: Dignity, in fair Verona, where we lay our scene.
Oren: If you do that, you don’t have to go as far as the Romeo and Juliet feud, where they are coming to blows with each other, but you could just have two families that don’t like each other or that disapprove of each other’s politics or something. Then you’d only have to convince those family members, and that’s a relatively straightforward thing to do. You’re not gonna have to add a whole complicated setup if what you’re mostly interested in is mutual pining.
Chris: Just, you know, that’s what starts wars; too like in dignity. You always gotta make sure your dignity is very different. [she laughs]
Bunny: You still have to be careful with that. One story. Crazy Rich Asians–this is based on the movie. I haven’t read the book, which I hear is different, but I feel like the movie kind of fumbled the ending with this. So the main character comes from a poor background and she’s dating the son of a wealthy Asian family, and his mother disapproves and is trying to break them up. So the female main character has to get her boyfriend to stand up to his mother and also prove herself to the mother. And the way they ended it, I didn’t feel like the mother comes around to the main character, mostly… through her winning at a board game? There’s dialogue during it. I don’t remember all of it, but I remember being disappointed in the son for not having a stronger opposition to his mother–and not like that was part of the conflict, but at the end of the conflict, she has this dramatic board game with the mother. They’re playing that game with the tiles, whose name I’m forgetting. Mahjong, that’s what it was.
Chris: I remember at the ending of this movie, I watched it not too long ago. And I think that the purpose of the game was to try to show the mother that she’s actually smart and savvy, because I think the mother was trying to frame her as sort of backwards. But what she actually does in that conversation is it’s more like generosity where she tells her she would actually end the relationship because she does not want to get between the love interest and his family. She doesn’t think that’s the best thing for him, and that’s what gets the mother on her side, is her choice to prioritize his family.
Bunny: It was odd. I wasn’t satisfied by it. We see her leaving after that dramatic confrontation, and I was like, oh, okay. I guess it is over then. That’s interesting. And then the son runs to the airport and they have a romantic reunion and I was like, oh. We didn’t really discuss like the class issues with this either, but okay. I guess they’re in love.
Chris: Class issues definitely remain. I do think that that might be a sign of some cultural differences. Sometimes when we have turning points and we get satisfaction with the endings, what is considered a valid turning point can be cultural in what’s worthy or what’s not. And this was definitely a situation where it was family’s more important than individuals or the couple’s love almost, and its values, which was not what most Americans would expect. I think.
Oren: I’ll take your word for it. I haven’t seen this movie.
Bunny: Well, I can assure you they are Asian and they are crazy rich.
Oren: Truth in advertising. But that movie aside, you do still need to create a convincing situation where it makes sense that the parents would change their mind, just like I described from Bridgerton, with the one character who was for no reason suddenly against the marriage. If you get to the end and the dad just suddenly changes his mind because the story’s almost over, that’s also gonna be boring. So you have to come up with a good one.
Chris: Similarly, if you need something that’s outside pressure, if you have political marriages or arranged marriages in your setting, if one person can feel obligated to carry out the marriage because their family would benefit substantially in some way, and perhaps needs that political alliance, et cetera. Besides couples that are 100% perfect, there’s other options; if you want lots of big sparks in chemistry, you’ve got enemies to lovers.
Oren: The definition of enemy is pretty flexible. They might actually be fighting, or they might legitimately not like each other at the beginning.
Chris: They might be in competition with each other.
Bunny: They might be sassily disrespectful of each other.
Chris: Although I will say with that one, the less that they like each other, one of the reasons it’s useful is because then you have more ground to cover before they finally hook up. So if you want that as an obstacle, it lasts longer if they’re enemies. Otherwise, if they’re a little bit warmer towards each other, you can do that. But then probably that’s going to go away and leave you needing something else. So you might at that point bring in the external pressure and people trying to separate them once they finally warm up, for instance. And then there’s a lot of different romance dynamics. But the other big one I see, which I think probably storytellers have a little less trouble with conflict for this one, is if you want lots of feels, lots of angst and that hurt-comfort dynamic, then you go with the tragic backstories and emotional hangups and misunderstandings. Clashing priorities can also be good for that one.
Bunny: I’ve seen this a couple times recently where they’re in love and good for each other, but they’re afraid of going public with it, or at least one of them is. So one feels like the other’s dirty little secret, and the other one is afraid of what will happen if they do go public for both of them. And so I think that works more as something that drives them apart rather than something that keeps them apart. It’s a good source of conflict because you can see how both of them need to come together over that; and that’s also Heartstopper, but The Girl From The Sea also does that. That one also, they’re keeping motivations hidden from each other as well.
Oren: I think that covers the topic pretty well, and I think we are no longer able to keep this episode apart from the end of the episode.
Chris: If we gave you some ideas for your story, consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/mythcreants.
Oren: Before we go, I wanna thank a few of our existing patrons. First, there’s Ayman Jaber. He’s an urban fantasy writer and a connoisseur of Marvel. Then there’s Kathy Ferguson, professor of political theory in Star Trek. We will talk to you next week.
[closing theme]
Chris: This has been the Mythcreant podcast. Opening and closing theme, “The Princess who Saved Herself” by Jonathan Coulton.