Benny Morris - Is Israel an Apartheid State?, Judicial Overhaul, and Other Matters
Oct 5, 2023
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Benny Morris, Israel's preeminent historian, discusses the claim of Israel being an apartheid state, the judicial overhaul, Israel's rule in the West Bank, the absence of a constitution, comparing Supreme Courts, concerns over government subsidies for the growing ultra-orthodox population, potential impact of judicial overhaul on economy, and political turmoil, American aid, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The situation in the West Bank exhibits apartheid-like characteristics, where Palestinians do not enjoy the same rights as Israelis and live under a different judicial system.
Benny Morris, despite not considering Israel as an apartheid state, recently signed an open letter denouncing Israel's occupation of the West Bank as apartheid due to the controversy surrounding Israel's right-wing government's attempts to overhaul the judiciary.
Israel faces a dilemma with the occupation of the West Bank, caught between security concerns and the moral quandary of governing over another people, while the Palestinian national movement remains divided and unyielding in rejecting Israel's existence, making a peaceful resolution difficult to achieve.
Deep dives
Israeli rule in the West Bank resembles an apartheid regime
Benny Morris, an expert on the Arab-Israeli conflict, discusses the issue of Israeli rule in the West Bank. While Israel itself is a democracy with equal rights for its citizens, the situation in the West Bank, where Israel has occupied and ruled for over 50 years, is similar to an apartheid regime. Palestinians in the West Bank do not enjoy the same rights as Israelis and live under a different judicial system. This situation, according to Morris, is not based on race like in South Africa, but on the clash of nationalisms. He also mentions that some Israeli ministers responsible for West Bank policies hold racist views. Although Morris does not believe that Israel is an apartheid state, he acknowledges that the regime in the West Bank exhibits apartheid-like characteristics.
Benny Morris' changing stance on the term 'apartheid'
Morris has been known for his criticism of characterizing Israel as an apartheid state. In the past, he strongly opposed the use of the term, seeing it as a way to manipulate readers in the US and Europe. However, with the current controversy surrounding Israel's right-wing government's attempts to overhaul the judiciary, Morris recently signed an open letter with over 1,000 academics and artists. In the letter, they denounced Israel's occupation as apartheid. Despite signing the letter, Morris clarifies that he has not changed his opinion on Israel being an apartheid state. He believes that Israel within its national borders is a democracy, but in the West Bank, where Israeli rule dominates over Palestinians, an apartheid-like regime exists.
Challenges and complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict presents numerous challenges and complexities. Morris highlights the dilemma Israel faces with the occupation of the West Bank. While Israel cannot withdraw due to security threats, staying in the West Bank means governing over and denying the rights of Palestinians, creating an unjust and politically problematic situation. Morris suggests that Israel should have withdrawn from the West Bank and Gaza Strip after their conquest, but some Israeli politicians resisted due to historical and religious ties to the land. He also mentions that the Palestinian national movement, divided between fundamentalist and secular blocs, has remained unwavering in its rejection of Israel's existence, making a peaceful resolution difficult to achieve. Morris acknowledges the difficult position Israel finds itself in, caught between security concerns and the moral quandary of governing over another people.
The Two-State Solution and Trust
The speaker discusses the potential benefits of a complete separation between Israelis and Palestinians after the 1948 war. He suggests that both peoples would have been safer and better off if they had established separate states in Jordan and Israel. He acknowledges the lack of trust between the two sides and highlights the importance of trust for achieving a lasting peace. He mentions that Israeli public opinion can change if they feel the other side is honest and genuinely desires peace.
The Lack of a Constitution and Judicial Reform
The speaker explains that Israel lacks a constitution due to historical divisions between the secular and religious communities. He mentions that attempts to pass basic laws as a substitute for a constitution have led to debates about the power of the judiciary. He discusses the current political situation where the right-wing parties in Israel seek to subdue the judiciary and exert more control. He expresses concerns that this could lead to a weakening of democratic checks and balances and potentially limit civil rights and human rights protections.