Johnson on the couch: RAFAEL BEHR talks political psychology with Ian Dunt

What is an obsession with politics doing to our psychology – and vice versa? Which weird psychology drives the Johnson Government’s mix of belligerence and incompetence? The Guardian’s Rafael Behr talks to Ian Dunt about the deep, unconscious roots of solidarity, polarisation, anger and ideological commitment, and the contents of the government’s subconscious engine room. If Dominic Cummings wants to burn everything down, what exactly does he want to replace it with? 

• “If you can make people afraid, you can activate a fight or flight response that makes it harder to form dispassionate intellectual judgments.”
• “There’s a lot more bad news on the horizon so Johnson might as well use Gavin Williamson as his trouble-sponge for a bit longer.” 
• “This cabinet has ended up like the USSR, when your elite is selected for two qualities: stupidity and thuggery.”
• “Some time soon Cummings is going to find that the flames are too hot – and there is no phoenix.”

Rafael's new podcast, Politics on the Couch, is available wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Ian Dunt. Produced by Andrew Harrison. Assistant producer Jacob Archbold. Music by Kenny Dickinson. Audio production by Alex Rees. THE BUNKER is a Podmasters Production

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