398: Why Do Internal Customers Matter as Much as External Ones?

Guest April Obersteller is a people-centered leader, operator, and founder of And Not Or, a community and leadership platform built around the belief that we don't have to choose. She has led customer and employee experience across iconic consumer brands, including YETI and woom, and now leads community and experience at Recess. April also hosts The AND Podcast, where she shares real conversations about leadership, growth, and humanity. Summary

In this episode, Jeff talks with April Obersteller, co-founder and CEO of And, about what it really takes to build companies that succeed by investing in people as much as products. Drawing on her experience at fast-growing brands like YETI and her work with startups and scale-ups, April challenges the false choice between caring for employees and driving business results. Instead, she advocates for an "and" philosophy—holding space for profitability and people, clarity and uncertainty, action and reflection. April explains why internal customers are often overlooked, how intentional care doesn't require flashy programs, and why culture can't be faked with posters or slogans. She also discusses brave leadership, emphasizing awareness, courage, and the willingness to act amid discomfort. Throughout the conversation, April highlights how focusing on employee success ultimately creates better customer experiences, stronger teams, and more resilient organizations. The episode offers a thoughtful exploration of leadership, scalability, and how curiosity and creativity emerge when leaders resist either-or thinking and instead embrace the complexity of building something meaningful.

The Essential Point

Sustainable business success comes from embracing "and" thinking—supporting people and performance together—rather than treating employee care as secondary to growth or profit.

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