I have been told, ever since I was young, that if the world is coming to an end it's going to end in fire. Too many people, too few resources and as all the charts tracking human progress point upwards we're going to either exhaust our planet, or nuke each other in the process.

But lately both malthusian and liberal optimist narratives have come under fire from a quite unexpected corner. Elon Musk travels the globe talking about it and the people driving the movement seem to be coming as much from the San Francisco tech scene as from rural traditionalists.

So timely in this time of the most celebrated nativity, we wanted to talk with two of the leading lights of the pro-natalist movement.

If you're a city dweller you probably already knew that babies aren't being born at replacement rates. But Simone and Malcolm Collins are making it their lives work to make the points just how catastrophic the numbers really are.

So we invite you to an end of the year discussion about babies, religion found and lost. About new Gods and Old.

Merry Christmas.

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Ep 49: How to Survive the Demographic Collapse (Guests: Simone & Malcom Collins)