Inauguration Episode Two: Josh & the Anti-Trumper, David Frum
Jan 20, 2025
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David Frum, a conservative "Never Trumper" and former White House speechwriter, discusses the daunting implications of a second Trump term. He reflects on the emotional turmoil of loyalty to an America that seems to stray from its ideals. Frum highlights the threats Trump's tactics pose to democracy and the integrity of civil service while critiquing the folly of tariffs and protectionism. The conversation also dives into the complexities of immigration policy and the interconnectedness of global issues, offering a rigorous defense of traditional conservative principles.
David Frum discusses the alarming potential for Trump's return to power, underscoring the risks it poses to American democracy and governance.
Frum analyzes the troubling allure of Trump's candidness, revealing how it resonates with darker human instincts and challenges societal norms.
The conversation addresses the detrimental economic impact of Trump's tariffs, highlighting a disconnect between populist beliefs and the realities faced by the working class.
Deep dives
Trump's Growing Power and Concerns
The discussion outlines the concerning political landscape surrounding Donald Trump's potential return to power, emphasizing that this time Trump has a legitimate electoral majority in both the House and Senate, indicating a more stable and substantial support base. This shift signals potential misuses of this power, as David Frum expresses a sense of foreboding about what a second term could entail for American democracy. He reflects on the previous election’s narrative that Trump’s first term was merely a glitch, realizing that the current political climate may represent a troubling acceptance of Trump's policies among voters. The fear is that in a scenario where Trump has the backing of elected officials and control over the necessary government apparatus, he may wield unprecedented influence to reshape the governance landscape in a way that could endanger democratic principles.
The Impact of Trump's Character on Supporters
Frum elaborates on the complex dynamics of Trump's appeal, suggesting that he resonates with darker aspects of human nature, which is troubling. Trump does not conform to the traditional expectations of decency, and instead, he has a raw candidness that has drawn certain individuals closer to him despite his moral failings. Frum likens this allure to a form of liberation for some voters, allowing them to embrace feelings and thoughts that they might usually suppress in polite society. This reflection highlights the challenge of understanding how Trump's base justifies their support, often ignoring or rationalizing his behavior in a way that seems to celebrate the worst rather than the best in societal values.
The Dangers of Tariffs and Economic Policies
The conversation delves into the adverse economic effects expected from Trump's proposed tariffs, framing them as necessarily harmful, not just to direct industries but to the broader economy as well. Frum argues that tariffs inflate the cost of goods and inadvertently affect the entire supply chain and consumer prices, creating a net loss for the working class that Trump's policies aim to protect. He suggests a misunderstanding among supporters, who may see tariffs as beneficial to American workers instead of recognizing that they simultaneously disadvantage consumers and compromise economic stability. This analysis illustrates a significant disconnect between populist rhetoric and the economic realities that such policies foster, ultimately predicting an erosion of living standards for everyday Americans.
The Complexity of Immigration and National Security
The podcast highlights the multifaceted issues surrounding immigration, especially as it pertains to national security and economic stability in the context of Trump’s policies. Frum discusses the shift from traditional illegal immigration to family units presenting themselves for asylum, which complicates the narrative of border security. He underscores that effective solutions would require realistic approaches to employment verification and international cooperation rather than simply punitive measures that fail to address the root causes of migration. This nuanced perspective conveys the challenges Biden faces in effectively managing immigration while also navigating the political ramifications of reversing Trump-era policies.
International Relations and Global Stability
The discussions extend into the arena of international relations, emphasizing the potential dangers globally if Trump returns to power. Frum articulates concerns about a deteriorating world order, citing Trump's tendency to favor confrontation over diplomacy, which could result in chaos and increased military action. He highlights a specific fear related to refusals to engage with NATO allies and the concerning implications of Trump's admiration for authoritarian leaders. This critical look at diplomacy and international dynamics illustrates the vital link between U.S. domestic policies and global implications, warning that a reckless foreign policy could unravel decades of progress toward international cooperation and peace.
Well, it's Trump's Inauguration. Again. On our previous episode, "Inauguration Episode One", Josh interviewed a pro-Trumper. Today, expand your thinking about the best- and worst-case scenarios of Trump's second term with a searingly cogent counter-opinion.
David Frum is one of the most influential conservative "Never Trumpers". He worked in the White House as President George W Bush's speechwriter, and is now a staff writer at The Atlantic. He wrote the books Trumpocracy (2018) and Trumpocalypse (2020).
Enjoy this bracing analysis from one of the most rigorous defenders of conservatism against the tide of right-wing populism. It's a conversation you don't want to miss.
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