The Two Experts on Section Three - Special Guests William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen
Aug 30, 2023
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Distinguished authors of a major article on the 14th Amendment, William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen, discuss the disqualification of Donald Trump. They explore Section Three of the Amendment, the uncertainty of the Constitution's future, the importance of historical originalism, the power of amendments, duties to enforce the Constitution, technicalities of aid and comfort, lessons from the Civil War, the historical context of the 14th Amendment, and potential constitutional crises.
Officials have a duty to enforce Section 3 of the 14th Amendment faithfully, regardless of personal preferences or political considerations.
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment can be harmonized with the First Amendment, as it primarily disqualifies based on engagement in insurrection, not pure speech.
Officials have a potential duty to disqualify individuals who meet the criteria under Section 3, regardless of personal beliefs or political pressures.
Deep dives
The Obligation to Enforce Section 3
Officials have a duty to enforce Section 3 of the 14th Amendment faithfully. This duty applies to legislative bodies, election officials, executive officers, and others. Failure to fulfill this duty can be seen as a betrayal of the Constitution and the oath taken to support it. However, it does not necessarily mean that those who fail to enforce Section 3 are considered enemies of the Constitution or subject to sanctions under Section 3 themselves. Rather, the focus is on the obligation to carry out the provisions of the Constitution, even if they are disliked or seen as conflicting with other principles.
The Interaction Between Section 3 and the First Amendment
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment supersedes the First Amendment to the extent of any true conflict. While the First Amendment is an essential safeguard for free speech, it does not shield all expressions or verbal statements. Similarly, Section 3 disqualifies individuals based on their engagement in insurrection or rebellion, but it does not target pure speech extensively. Thus, the two provisions can generally be harmonized, and the obligation remains for officials to apply Section 3 faithfully, regardless of personal preferences or political considerations.
The Duty to Disqualify and the Dangers of Failing to Act
There is a potential duty for officials to disqualify individuals who meet the criteria for disqualification under Section 3. Failing to fulfill this duty could be seen as giving aid or comfort to enemies of the Constitution, although this would typically require a deliberate betrayal of the oath of office. It is essential for officials to take their obligations seriously and apply the Constitution, including Section 3, regardless of personal beliefs, political pressures, or preferences. Failure to do so would undermine the integrity of the Constitution and disregard the responsibilities associated with holding office.
The Importance of Truth and Belief
The truth and the actual facts of a situation are crucial when applying Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Beliefs held by individuals, even if sincerely held, do not serve as a defense to disqualification if they conflict with the truth or established facts. The focus is on the objective reality and the actual outcome, rather than one's personal beliefs or perceptions. It is important to distinguish between the true facts and personal beliefs when determining eligibility under Section 3.
Interpretation of Section Three for Presidential Eligibility
The podcast discusses the interpretation of Section Three of the 14th Amendment regarding the eligibility of a president who has engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States. The main point made is that if a presidential candidate incites or engages in an insurrectionary act, they can be disqualified from holding office. The podcast highlights that while the interpretation may lead to challenging situations and controversies, the Constitution should be followed rigorously, and the potential negative implications should not be used as a reason to reinterpret the provision.
Potential Supreme Court Ruling on Trump's Eligibility
The podcast explores the likelihood of the Supreme Court ruling on the eligibility of Donald Trump to be president based on Section Three of the 14th Amendment. The discussion acknowledges the possibility of a unified Supreme Court, including conservative and liberal justices, ruling against Trump's eligibility due to his alleged engagement in an insurrection. While the outcome cannot be predicted with certainty, the hosts express confidence that a Supreme Court ruling could potentially be accepted by the country and Congress as the final judgment.
***CLE available*** In a special episode, the two distinguished authors of a recent major article, which dives deep into Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment and finds that Donald Trump is disqualified from the Presidency, join us for a thoughtful and rigorous examination of the tough questions about their conclusions. These are leading conservative scholars who have gone where their methodologies, and the law, has taken them. Reaction has been swift and impassioned around the country, and in this episode they respond for the first time to some of the critiques, explore the implications of their work, and in doing so, they bring an integrity to our civic conversation. This is an important discussion of important issues, by real experts. Note: Continuing Legal Education Credit available after listening by going to podcast.njsba.com.
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