The One Where We Geek Out on Transitioning into Tech with Julia Furst Morgado

Oct 8, 2024

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About our guest:

Julia Furst Morgado is a Global Technologist on the Product Strategy team Office of the CTO at Veeam Software. Her passion is making Cloud Native technologies and DevOps best practices easier to understand by sharing her knowledge and experiences. She is also committed to empowering communities as an AWS Community Builder, a CNCF Ambassador, a Google Women Techmakers Ambassador, a Civo Ambassador and Girl Code Ambassador. Additionally, she organizes the KCD NY, further fostering collaboration and learning opportunities.

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All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

Transcript:
ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And Geeking Out with me today is Julia Morgado. Welcome, Julia.

JULIA: Hi, Adriana. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

ADRIANA: I'm so excited to have you on as I love having the ladies on the podcast. It's my favorite thing is to bring amazing ladies in tech to the forefront. But also, I've had several fellow Brazilians on the podcast as well.

JULIA: That's amazing. Unfortunately, no Portuguese. But. But yeah, I love, I love collaborating with Brazilians as well.

ADRIANA: It's so much fun. And where are you calling from today?

JULIA: So I'm in New York. In Manhattan. Yeah, New York City.

ADRIANA: And at the time that we're recording this, correct me if I'm wrong, but KCD New York is taking place tomorrow.

JULIA: Yeah. Uh huh. Tonight we have a speaker reception already, and then tomorrow the whole day will have the KCD, which I'm super excited. We've been organizing it for over a year, so finally the day has arrived.

ADRIANA: Oh my God, that's so exciting. And I definitely want to dig into that. But before we do, I'm going to subject you to my lightning round/icebreaker questions. Are you ready?

JULIA: Yes.

ADRIANA: Okay, first question. Are you left handed or right handed?

JULIA: Right handed.

ADRIANA: Okay. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

JULIA: iPhone.

ADRIANA: Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows?

JULIA: Mac.

ADRIANA: And what's your favorite programming language?

JULIA: I would say JavaScript, but I recently learned that there is a programming language called Julia. I never. Yeah, I've never used it, never tried it, but I'm really curious. So, yeah, maybe. Maybe in the future I'll try it out.

ADRIANA: That's exciting. A language with your name.

JULIA: Yes.

ADRIANA: So cool. Okay, next question. Dev or Ops?

JULIA: Ops.

ADRIANA: And do you prefer JSON or YAML?

JULIA: YAML.

ADRIANA: Spaces or tabs?

JULIA: Tabs.

ADRIANA: And do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

JULIA: That's a good one. It depends. But I would say text, probably. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Right. And then final question. What is your superpower?

JULIA: My superpower? I speak a lot of languages, so maybe, you know, I'm good with languages. Not, not just programming languages, but I speak Portuguese, French, Spanish and English. So I would say, yeah, I have an easy time connecting with people all over the world. Maybe that's a super superpower.

ADRIANA: That is. That's so great. That's so great. And I, you know, one of the times that we were chatting. So for those who aren't aware, Julia writes blog posts in all four languages.

JULIA: I try to.

ADRIANA: Oh my God. Like, that's, that's so amazing. That's so much work. I am so impressed that you do this. And it's so great because, you know, especially having had a chance to meet more Brazilians in tech in the last little while, because I've been in this like, bubble of like mostly in Canada and just interacting with, with Englishspeakers and, you know, it's been interesting meeting so many fellow Brazilians in tech who, you know, like, yes, we all speak English, but there is so much craving for content in our native language.

JULIA: Yeah. And sometimes their English is not great. And whether we want it or not, it's easier to understand something technical when it's in your mother tongue. So, you know, documentation and blogs, things like that, it's easier to understand if it's in Portuguese or whoever is reading that their own language. So yeah, there is the need, the demand for that. But usually from what I see, most things are in English. So that's why I always try to create some content in other languages as well.

ADRIANA: That's so great. And, you know, to rewind a bit even further, because you have a really, really cool background and you and I met last year in 2023 at KubeHuddle. And that's when I discovered that you have a very cool background and that you're Brazilian. And so if you wouldn't mind sharing with our audience.

JULIA: Yeah, sure. So I'll give a summary if people want to listen to the long version. I gave a talk at KubeCon in Chicago about my journey from being non technical to becoming a CNCF Ambassador. But basically, yeah, I come from Brazil, São Paulo, and I went to law school there. I worked as a lawyer there for a year, a year and a half, and then I moved to the US and I studied business and I started working in marketing. And my last job in marketing was at NMSP. So, you know, working with a lot of engineers, support engineers mostly. There were some software engineers. And I never thought I would become technical, but I got laid off during the pandemic and I started a coding bootcamp. And that's when all, everything started. And I would say, I'm here today. Everything that I've achieved so far is also because of the community. So not only I studied, you know, programming languages, JavaScript, etc, that itself is not enough. You need to be involved in the community. And I think that's why I grew so much, so fast, as well.

So, you know, became a CNCF Ambassador, AWS Community Builder, ambassador to other programs as well. Organized conferences. So the KubeHuddle last year, I helped organize. I helped Marino. And then this year, I'm organizing the KCD, which is tomorrow. We're having also the AWS Community Day in New York towards the end of August. So, you know, very involved with several communities. And I think when people ask me, oh, Julia, what did you do? What's the secret? There isn't really a secret, but I think, like, when you're, you're involved with the community, it...first, it's fun, and then you grow more than you would by yourself, doing everything alone. Yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA: It's so true. And, yeah, I mean, I totally echo your sentiment on the community. If it hadn't been for the community, like, I honestly, I think my career has grown more in the last couple of years than it has. You know, I've been in tech since 2001, and I, you know, like, my career has grown more significantly in the last two years when I've been out more in the community than it has this entire time before that. And as you said, it's the collaboration. It's just getting to meet really cool people and...

JULIA: Exactly. And they become friends, and. And they want to help you, and they want to see you succeed, you know? And it becomes fun. Yeah. Because it's work. You know, work sometimes is boring, but by being involved in the community, it becomes fun. And then you also want to volunteer your free time to do, you know, contribute to an open source, open source project or. Or write a piece of content or even do what you're doing. You know, this podcast, you're doing it on your free time, so it's amazing. And then you get to meet new people every time you record it. And maybe they know someone, they'll put you in touch with them. So that's the power of community and the beauty of community.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. It's the networking possibilities.

JULIA: Exactly.

ADRIANA: There is just a.

JULIA: And funny enough, tomorrow, one of the keynotes, they got Covid, so they had to cancel. And I was asked to give the keynote for the KCD. So I'm giving...I know...first time, I'm a little nervous, but it's gonna go great. It's just 15 minutes, but, yeah, I'm going to talk about the community. So, initially, the title was how to boost your career with the CNCF community. And then I crossed career, and the title now is how to boost your life with the CNCF community. Because it's more than just, you know, your professional growth, it's also personal growth. And I'm really excited to talk about that tomorrow.

ADRIANA: That's so great. Congratulations on that.

JULIA: Thank you. I'm excited.

ADRIANA: Yeah. And, you know, it's been such a meteoric rise for you, I mean, considering that, you know, you started, like, around pandemic times.

JULIA: Yeah, a little over two years ago.

ADRIANA: Wow. Wow. That's wild. That's wild. And it just goes to show, that's what I love about tech is it's such an inclusive type of community. There are people with degrees in computer science, computer engineering, and then there are people who either their degrees have nothing to do with it, or they didn't go to university.

JULIA: Exactly.

ADRIANA: It's so great. My degree is in Industrial Engineering. I took some computer courses, but, you know, I, people assume, like, oh, I studied computer science. Computer engineering. Yeah, no, but I always knew I wanted to do this, so I just, like, stuck myself in that.

JULIA: And that's the way.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so great. Now, you know, like, you're, and I think you're, like part of the, when they redid the ambassador program, you were part of, like, that new batch of ambassadors. I think we both came up at around the same time in that program. How did you hear about the CNCF Ambassadors program?

JULIA: I think I saw on LinkedIn something. You know, I started getting involved with the community, I would say a year ago, because I started programming. I thought I wanted to be a software engineer. That's the only thing I knew. I thought tech was being a software engineer. And then I found out there is so much more to it. I started learning cloud, AWS, and then cloud native as well. I got a ticket to go to KubeCon, and that's when I saw, like, oh, there is this whole new world of possibilities and tech that I can learn, and there is a whole community around that. But I think they had CNCF Ambassadors back then, but then they closed the program and they reopened a new one. Then I saw on LinkedIn a post, someone posted, you know, register or, you know, fill out the form to try to become an ambassador. And I said, why not? I'll try. I didn't have any expectations. It's like when I submit a talk, I never expect that I'll get accepted, but I have this mentality of the no, I already have, so it's better to try. And if I get the no, that's fine, you know, but if I get the yes, even better. So that's what I did, I applied for the CNCF Ambassadors and I was just very honest. I said I was starting out in tech and didn't have a lot of experience. And I started, I was contributing a lot to documentation, like in the open source world, the CNCF project documentation and localization as well. And I said that's the extent of my contributions. But I'm very passionate. Sorry. I want to help and I want this to be an inclusive community and I want to bring more people that are in my shoes as well. Bring them like beginners, people that are transitioning to tech, bring them into the community. And I think that's why I got accepted, you know, because I have disadvantage. A lot of times, people that are in the industry for 10, 15, 20 years, they don't know how to talk to people that are starting out. They think, you know, if they write a blog, that is they, for them it's like not as, not that technical, but it's still very technical and hard for people to understand. So I think I break down things even more for those that are starting out.

ADRIANA: And that's such a great attitude because I think, you know, my complaint has always been like, some blog posts are so technical because they're written by people who are just like, you know, this is their world, right? So they just assume, you know, stuff. And I take it from the point of view, same as you. Like, I know nothing and explain it in excruciating detail, right? Because there's, there's a desire for people and I think that's so wonderful. And I, I think it's really great to like, and, you know, congrats. And you just got renewed as a CNCF Amazon for another two years.

JULIA: Yeah. Congrats to us, right?

ADRIANA: Yes, yes. Yeah, it's so great. It's nice to know that we're good for two years now.

JULIA: Exactly.

ADRIANA: But I, I think it goes to show, and you mentioned two really important things, contributing to documentation and localization. Because again, we all know that technical documentation, especially for open source projects, isn't great because people would rather code. But then again, you put yourself in the shoes of someone who's new to the thing and you can't just assume that they understand. I have conversations with people where I'm like, can you explain this thing in the documentation? Like, oh, it's in like the Helm chart. I'm like...??

JULIA: Exactly. How to start. Like, you really have to take someone by hand and show step by step. Otherwise, if you just put some links or, you know, like high level stuff. People are not going to understand and then they're not going to be able to try the project, you know, implement it, and then they won't be able to contribute in the future. So you have to really start from the beginning. And I think documentation is so important, but a lot of people, they don't think like that. They don't think it's that important.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, code. Code is the holy grail of contribution. But yeah, I completely agree with you. I started out in documentation too. It felt like the less scary thing to do. And plus, there's so much to say. There's always room for improvement. And then again, the localization, acknowledging the fact that we need to make our documentation accessible beyond just the english speakers, because there are some very brilliant technical people where they don't either they don't speak English or they don't speak English well enough to be able to communicate, but it doesn't mean that they know that they don't know what they're doing.

JULIA: Exactly.

ADRIANA: Competent people. Yeah, great. That's so great that you did that. And, you know, you know, as part of like, just going back to your learning journey, what, what sort of, um, what tactics do you do you use when you're learning a new technology so that you're, you know, to get into something new? Like what's your motivation?

JULIA: I would say mostly getting hands on, but I know it's hard, you know, because you encounter so many issues and bugs and then you want to stop and you want to give up. But I think getting hands on, getting your hands dirty and trying things, instead of just like reading a blog post or watching a video, trying the things yourself, you get to learn more. But for those that are starting out, I would say it's fine if you follow a tutorial step by step. It's okay if you don't know by heart how to do something and you have to look back at the tutorial, it's totally fine. It's that muscle memory that you built and no one knows everything by heart, like commands and things. That's why you have Google. You can google every time. And now with AI, it's making it even easier. I would say yes, getting my hands dirty and asking for help as well. Because sometimes, like I said, you encounter a bug and then you want to try to solve it yourself. You're embarrassed to ask for help, but you don't get past that point and you won't understand what's going, you don't understand what's going on. What the problem is. So ask someone that knows a little bit more than you for help. You might think, oh, I'm gonna bother that person. But like I said, in the community, everyone is so helpful. They want you to succeed and they will stop what they're doing to jump on a call with you and help you. I've had that a lot of times. You know, I had an issue, I was trying to contribute, and I had, you know, a PR error. PR error on GitHub. Someone jumped on a call with me. I shared my screen, and then, like, we, we fixed it. And I learned why, why I was getting that error. Or, you know, other examples. But I would say, yeah, also asking for help is a big thing. And I still, I'm still working on that. You know, I still have a trouble with that.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I can completely relate. I also have a hard time asking for help. And I'm always, especially, like, if there's one person, you know, that is like, kind of your comfortable go to person in an area and you're like, am I bothering them too much? Are they gonna, and I've noticed that if, you know, it's a getting to the point where they're feeling overwhelmed, oftentimes people will say, oh, you know, I might be like, a little bit swamped with stuff, but if you post in the blah, blah, blah slack channel, I'm sure there will be someone who can help out. And so, and that's what I have to, like, tell myself because I still get scared. Like, I had to write a couple of talks for KubeCon and ask questions on topics with which I wasn't super familiar. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so scared to ask these questions on the Slack. But then I'm like, I have to get this talk done, so.

JULIA: Exactly.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's the best motivation. And, you know, like, for you, being a newer member in the cloud native community. And it's funny because, like, I think that's something you and I have in common is that, like, we're newer to cloud native. I've been in tech for a while, but I've been on kind of the closed source side of tech. And you're like, new to tech, new to cloud native. What's been your experience around making, like, how was it when you did your first PR? How did you feel?

JULIA: Like it was scary, you know, I didn't know what I had to do. So at first I followed some tutorials on how to open my first PR, and step by step, I followed that. But like, I told you, I had some issues. Someone jumped on a call with me, and we fixed that. I felt, you know, realization and relief that I get. I got that done. And then you kind of get addicted. You want to merge and more PRs and. But it's a lot of work, you know, contributing to open source. You can't do something and, like, oh, I'll just give five minutes, and then I'll open a PR. No, if you want to do something well done, you need to put in some effort. So sometimes, like, take a chunk of your day, like, in 1 hour, and work on that. Otherwise, it's not even worth to start something. So know how much time you have to invest in that. But I think the feeling is amazing. And then you also get to talk to other people. You know, the reviewers and the maintainers, they're gonna check your work, and if there is an issue, they're gonna comment. And I had a lot of issues, you know, people would review and say, oh, can you change this? And then, like, if I didn't understand that, I would go on slack and message them. And, you know, that's how you start a conversation and you end up making friends like that.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. Just being able to ask those questions of, like, clarify, and it's a little scary. Like, I actually had a PR the other day where I needed to chase someone down. Like, they made a suggestion to a blog post that I've written on OpenTelemetry, and I had to chase them down till they were, like, the thing standing between, like, me and getting the PR merged.

JULIA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: And I'm like, oh, my God, I don't want to bug this guy and ask him to look at my thing, but I really want my PR merged and so get over yourself. Like, just message him.

JULIA: Exactly. It won't hurt. Yeah.

ADRIANA: They don't bite.. They don't bite. I think that's the nice thing. Like, everyone's been, you know, I've mentioned this on my podcast before. Like, whenever I do a PR and OpenTelemetry, people's comments are so thoughtful. No one has ever been a jerk. Like, you know, on Stack Overflow, people are jerks.

JULIA: I know.

ADRIANA: I'm not saying, like, just in general, on Stack Overflow, some people can be total assholes and. And, like, open telemetry community is like, la la la.

JULIA: You know, I would say I only have had good experiences in, you know, in the CNCF community overall. Like, open source projects contributing to those or, you know, events that I've gone to only good experiences because I think, you know, there is the code of conduct and people really follow that. And like you said, it's such an inclusive community. People, they don't judge you or anything. They don't want to make you feel bad. They want to make you feel good and come there again and again and help out. So I'm lucky. And like you said on stack overflow, there are so many comments. I've never had those, so I can't complain.

ADRIANA: That's good. That's great. That's great. Now, the other thing that I want to ask you about is because you're an AWS Community Builder as well, right? And you just got renewed for that as well, right?

JULIA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Is this your second year doing it?

JULIA: Yes. Yes. So it's every year as well, not two years like the CNCF Ambassadors. But I'm very involved in the AWS community as well because part of my job at Veeam, my main product is Veeam Backup for AWS. So I have to be involved in the community and teaching, educating people about our product. And I really like database community as well. People are also inclusive and very friendly and similar to the CNCF Ambassadors. You know, you have to help out somehow. So I mostly, I create content. I give a lot of talks at AWS Community Days. I'm always, you know, visible and posting on LinkedIn, but I didn't know that this, but recently I found out that AWS has a lot of open source projects. So we were at the Open Source Summit in Seattle a month ago and AWS was there. I had a great chat with them and they were telling me about all the open source projects. I still haven't got time to check them out, but it's another opportunity to contribute to.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. And what was kind of the first thing. So did you start learning about AWS because of your role at Veeam or did you get your role at Veeam because you started getting into AWS?

JULIA: Yeah. The second thing that you said I started learning, you know, when I was doing the coding bootcamp and then going to some events here in New York. And one of the first events I went to before KubeCon was the AWS Summit here in New York. So Marino, you know, Marino, obviously the one that organized the KubeHuddle, and he invited me to go to the summit. It's free. Everyone is welcome to come. There will be another one this year. And then again, similar to KubeCon, I saw there was a whole community and you know, another space besides software engineering, because when you're starting out, when you're transitioning to tech, you don't know what's out there. You only know what people tell you. So I only knew the coding. You know, what the coding bootcamp was telling me, and it was telling me to become a software engineer. And then I started going to these events and seeing, oh, actually there is more than that. There is cloud. What is cloud? And then, like, oh, let me learn a little bit about these and see if I like it. And that's how I got interested. And then I deviated a little bit and went cloud native as well. But I'm very passionate and interested in both topics.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. And for you, like, because I'm kind of curious because I had my own, like, expectations of cloud, cloud native. What was your expectation when you first heard of, like, cloud cloud native? Was it something that was intimidating or something where you're like, cool?

JULIA: It was. I think it was more intimidating because, again, you know, coming from a non technical background, everything is new. So I already, I had, I was learning all the programming languages. You know, I was. Back then at that time, I was doing practicing react and, you know, it's a lot of things thrown at you, you know, different terms, and you have to practice and exercises. We had to build our portfolio by then, and so it was a lot. And then on top of that, I started learning about infrastructure. And what is infrastructure? Because obviously you don't have just your app. You need to host it somewhere. But I didn't know anything about that. And then I had to learn all that behind the scenes from the app, what goes on, and then the cloud and cloud native. And because of Veeam as well, I had to learn a little bit of on-prem and VMs. So, you know, it was a lot. I would say it was a lot. It's still a lot. It's very overwhelming. And tech will always be like that now with AI, and there are new tools popping up every day and new languages and new packages. So I understand when people say it's overwhelming and they want to give up. Sometimes I want to give up as well. But you know what my instructor used to say, it's a marathon and not a sprint. You don't have to know everything in, like, three months. You can take your time, three years and slowly learn everything. But people, they want to know everything. Like yesterday, they want to know everything. And that's the, our, the problem of the generation nowadays, I think.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. It's the instant gratification.

JULIA: Exactly. Yes.

ADRIANA: And I agree with you. Like, there's. You know, there's so many people that I meet in tech where you look at them and. And you're like, oh, my God, they're so smart. I can never be like that. It gets really depressing. I am not gonna lie. And I'll sit here...I'm like, oh, my God, they have so much stuff like me. Like, what am I worth, right?

JULIA: That's how I feel when I talk to you. And, you know, being an ambassador, I get that a lot, because a lot of the ambassadors, most of them, they know so much. They've been in the industry for several years, and they are maintainers of the open source project, and they do. They. They are part of committees in the CNCF, and. And they're doing so much. And. And you. What you're doing is just a drop in the ocean, and you feel like it's not enough, and you compare yourself a lot to others. So I totally get it. And, yeah, it's imposter syndrome, right?

ADRIANA: Yeah, big time. Big time. It's. It's funny because I think the. The thing that helps to ground me sometimes is talking to really smart people who also feel imposter syndrome. And I'm like, okay, all right.

JULIA: I think we should talk more openly about that. You know? I know. I think everyone feels imposter syndrome. Even recently. Veeam's previous CTO, he left a few months ago. Before he left, he said, I also have imposter syndrome. So imagine a CTO saying that. But you go day by day, and, you know, we have our jobs, and we are working from home. We are not really talking to people. And you don't know if the people that are posting on LinkedIn, they have imposter syndrome, obviously. Probably they have. But you think, like, their lives are amazing, and they have everything figured out, which is the problem of social media, and. But people, they don't go advertising. Hey, I have imposter syndrome, by the way. You know, I am giving this amazing talk. I have this amazing job, but I have imposter syndrome. And it's okay. They don't have to advertise that. But it would be nice if people talked more openly about that.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. Because then. Then I think it would help make us all more human eyes. Right. Because people that we admire are probably secretly struggling. And I agree with you. That's why it's so nice to be able to have, like, open and candid conversations about mental health. And I've had the pleasure of being able to speak candidly on mental health on this podcast with various people. I've had Tim on twice.

JULIA: Oh, I love Tim. Yes.

ADRIANA: Oh, great. He's so great. He did a dedicated episode on mental health, and then for KubeHuddle this year, we did a mental health panel where he was part of it, and he's so open about mental health. And I love it because we need to have these more candid conversations. You know, it's funny because you say, like, you're intimidated by me whenever, whatever we talk. And honestly, I feel intimidated by you because I'm, like, you've accomplished so much in so little time, and you write four different languages, and I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know anything.

JULIA: You know, I don't even. I don't even count these things. Although I have an achievement list. So on notion. Yeah, I have, like, a folder where I put my achievement, although I never look at that. But, you know, people say, oh, you've done so much. And, yeah, you speak four languages, but for me, you know, it's my life. It's my day to day routine. I don't think, oh, that's more than what I should be doing or I would be doing. But then again, you compare yourself to others and you think, no, actually, you're not doing enough, and you should be doing more. So, yeah, it's a big problem to compare yourself to others. What I've learned is we have to compare ourselves to who we were yesterday or who we were, like, a week ago and not to others directly.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And, yeah, it's something that I'm trying to. To do a little bit more than I. Yeah, because I. Yeah, I have the same problem. I'm always comparing myself to others, and I'm like, no, but, like, you know, the other thing, too, is, like, each of us has something unique to bring to the table. Right. And so I think we have to put everybody else aside and what they do and just focus on what you can do. Like, so at one point in my career, I worked at the same place as my father and my husband. We all worked at Accenture together at one point, and it was very intimidating because they're really smart guys and they're both very successful. And so I'm, like, thinking, I spent my time there thinking that I had to be like them, and I sucked. I sucked. I was trying to be something that I'm not. And then finally when I left and started, like, forging my own career and realizing, like, I don't have to follow in either of their footsteps. I can just bring my own brand. That's when I started doing well at work, because I'm like, I can't be like somebody else. I have to be like me.

JULIA: Yeah. Your journey is unique and doesn't have to be like anyone else's. And that's why when people ask me, oh, what did I do? You know, like, their journey is gonna be different from mine. I can tell you what worked for me and you can try to replicate that, but, you know, the outcome might not be the same. And it totally fine, you know, if you, if you don't get a job, like, if in two years, you don't get a job in tech, if it takes you a little longer or things like that, you know, but people have to start comparing themselves to other big time, I think.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now just, I had another question talking about, like, how you got into veeam.

JULIA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: You work as a community evangelist, right?

JULIA: Yes. Yeah. Like, yeah, the role, the title is Global Technologies, but yes, it's evangelist or DevRel/developer advocate. It's the same. We. Michael, do you know Michael Cade? He's my colleague. You probably know him. If I show you a picture, I've heard the name and he says, we like to make noise, make noise in the community. So that's what we do. And that's what evangelists do as well. And, yeah, that's what my role at Veeam.

ADRIANA: That's so great. That's so great. And that was basically like the role that you've had basically, since you finished, like your coding bootcamp.

JULIA: Yes.

ADRIANA: Like your first official tech role.

JULIA: Yes. And I had barely finished the boot camp and I got this job. So I was very lucky, you know. But again, there is more to that than just, you know, people. They can't compare themselves to. My journey. I had a portfolio, I had a resume, but I had done a lot as well. I had created a lot of content. I had four YouTube channels. I was going to a lot of events. I was giving talks already, so really putting myself out there. And then I met Michael at KubeCon in Detroit. And that's how it started. He put me in touch with the hiring manager, and now I work in his team. And that's the power of community, you know, networking. Someone knows a job opening and then they can refer you and they'll put in a good word and that's how it goes. So I'm a big advocate for. I really love networking. I'm a big fan of that, you know, meeting people and not expecting anything in return. So, you know, just meeting to make friends and to have a good time. And if something comes out of it, that's fine, but not meeting someone to ask for a favor, I don't like that. I get a lot of messages on LinkedIn or Twitter, hey, I need a job. Can you do this or that? No. If you start a frank, start engaging with me and showing what you're doing, maybe it will be different. But don't just come and ask for. For a job, you know, that doesn't work.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think you touched on something really, really important, which I call it tech karma, because I think, like, you know, and it's in the spirit of community, like, you start to know enough people where you can do, like, you know, help out a friend in tech. It can be in small ways. It can be like, oh, hey, I heard of this job posting, or, hey, you know, there's a really cool person that I think you should meet. And you make an introduction at, you know, like, a social event or whatever or on LinkedIn or Twitter, and, you know, sometimes it can and, you know, just doing, like, acts of kindness in tech, not because you want something out of it, like, just for the sake of doing it. And I do find that at some point down the road, that kindness will hit you back, that somebody else will do that act of kindness or even, you know, when you're starting out, like, my philosophy has always been, like, because my degree is in industrial engineering. You know, when I was looking for, like, a tech job, especially, you know, companies were like, oh, you must have, like, a degree in computer engineering, computer science. And I'm like, I don't have that, but I have the experience in programming for several years. And, you know, somebody had to take a chance on me. And the way I look at it, yeah, you know, I want to be able to take a chance on someone else, too, repay that kindness, not directly to the person who took a chance on me, but, like, because someone took a chance on me, I want to take a chance on someone, I want to guide them.

JULIA: Exactly. Yeah. And same with me. You know, they took a chance on me at Veeam, and it was my first job coming out of a boot camp. And I know a lot of people struggle, you know, with their first job in tech, and they saw that I had the hunger to learn, and that was enough. Sometimes you don't need much on your resume or you don't need a computer science degree, but you need to show that you're willing to put in the work and you want to learn and you're going to be there when things get hard. So. But a lot of people, they want the easy way out and they want, you know, they, they think, oh, tech, they see dollar signs and they think that's it. But no, there is a lot of work that you have to put into to work in tech.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And I definitely see, like, you put yourself out there all the time and obviously, like, your hard work has paid out and you always give, like, really great nuggets. Like, I definitely recommend that you follow Julia on, on LinkedIn and on Twitter because she's always posting some, like, really good nuggets of, like, just little bits of advice.

JULIA: Yeah. Life in general as well.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's great. Especially, like, if you're getting started out in tech and, you know, whether you're a student just graduating or someone who's, you know, doing a career change, I think the advice that you give is, is great and relevant. I wanted to ask you also just before we, we wrap up, because you're doing, you're organizing KCD New York, which by the time this airs will have passed. But I always like to chat with folks. I think you're like, I think the third person that I've talked to on this podcast, third or fourth, about who's organized some sort of conference, and I've talked to Marino, I've talked to Amanda Brock, who organizes OpenUK. Who else that I talked to? Oh, Edith Puclla. She's great. She's doing like the KCD Peru. What's your experience been? You know, like, having participated, having been an organizer of KubeHuddle last year, how did that help you with organizing KCD New York this year?

JULIA: So I knew what had to be done. You know, we had a list of things that needed to be done in order to get a successful event. I think that was helpful from KubeHuddle. But again, each event is different. It's a different venue. And you need, every time you need new sponsors and then publishing on social media about the event, getting people to register and buy a ticket, all these things are different from event to event. And I think the biggest takeaway is that when you go to an event, you don't see how much work has been put in. You think, oh, great event. I'm just enjoying myself today and then I'm going home after that and that's it. You forget about it. But the organizers, they've been putting the work for, like, at least a year. And they, you know, they, they've been, my case, anxious about it. Is it gonna work out? Are we going to sell enough tickets? Are people going to enjoy it? And then, like, at the day of, we want everything to go as planned, everything to go perfect. And even after that, you know, there is the post event and what did go, what went right, what went wrong, and, you know, and start planning for the next one. So a lot of times for attendees, an event is just like one more thing on their calendar. But for, for organizers, it's a lot of work hours put into that, you know, a lot of work.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And even when you have a whole team of organizers. Yeah, a lot of work. And how many volunteers for KCD...

JULIA: I think we have probably, like eight volunteers. We had a lot of organizers. We were ten, although two of them won't be able to come tomorrow, and a few of them have disappeared. It's normal. The work, a lot of times ends up being on a few people instead of the whole group, especially if it's a big group. Everything worked out, and, yeah, we have a few volunteers tomorrow just to make sure everything works, because also the organizers, they're gonna be busy with most important, the most important things. I'm also giving a keynote, so morning. I'm gonna be busy, but I'm really excited. It's going to be a great event.

ADRIANA: That's so exciting. And you have AWS Community Day later in August as well.

JULIA: Yeah, August 29, I think. Yeah.

ADRIANA: You're an organizer for that as well.

JULIA: Yes, I know, I know. I'm starting to regret that.

ADRIANA: I can see why you weren't able to help out with KubeHuddle.

JULIA: Yes, I told Marino I have too much on my plate. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Very understandable. Because...

JULIA: But I have a hard time saying no, you know, I'm still learning that. It's really hard. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah. I have the same problem, and I've had to, like, there was one. One conference where I got accepted, and it was like an online conference, but it was going to be for, like, a new talk, and it was going to coincide with, like, KubeCon this year, and I'm like, I can't. Yeah, I hate to say no, but I can.

JULIA: I know. I feel really bad, but. But, yeah, we. We have to prioritize. We need to learn how to prioritize, and, you know, we can't be everywhere at the same time.

ADRIANA: Yeah, but it's hard, you know, when you're trying to, like, build up your reputation. And then people ask you to do stuff means that they're starting to pay attention to.

JULIA: Exactly. Yes.

ADRIANA: I know. It's like, me next time.

JULIA: And then you're afraid you don't want to say no.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's. It's always nice to be surrounded by people who, like, you know, it. I think oftentimes, like, our guts are telling us what the right thing to do is, which is like, having to say no. And sometimes running it past a friend or two to just validate your gut feeling is so helpful, because otherwise, you're wracked with guilt. And even if you say no, you're still going to feel guilty. But actually, I heard a really kind of interesting thing on a podcast recently, because every time you're saying no to something, you're saying yes to something else. Like, the yes can be even just yes to yourself. And they suggested, I think this was like. I think this was like, a joint episode with a podcast called the Happiness Lab, and I think Cautionary Tales. And they were basically saying for the thing that you said no, to put it on your calendar, because then when the date comes, it's not a reminder of, like, oh, I said no to this. I'm gonna cry. Oh, my God. Thank God I said no to this.

JULIA: I'm so busy, I wouldn't have been able to. Exactly.

ADRIANA: So it's a validation. So I thought that was, like, a really interesting take on it. I definitely would like to do more of that. Yeah, it's a journey.

JULIA: Exactly. Yeah. It's a marathon and not a sprint. Yeah, it's a journey.

ADRIANA: Exactly. We have to keep that in mind. Now, before we go, I wanted to ask you one more question, because you do have, like, a background as a lawyer. Do you find that that background has served you well as, like, part of your current work?

JULIA: Not really, to be honest. Not yet. My manager, he says yes, you know, because I'm so good at, you know, public speaking and writing blogs, etc. So probably my background in law, because you have to read a lot, probably that has helped. But I started getting more interest on open source licensing, and having. Then having the background in law really helps. So I started, like, doing some research recently. Nothing big, but I want to. I want to learn more about that. And I think, you know, there are a lot of lawyers that work on that area. Maybe. Maybe one day I can. And I can work with that. You know, I'm just interested at the moment.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. That's so cool. And by the way, I will. I will mention something interesting that I, that I read once, and I think it applies to people like you and me, where the things that come easily to us were like, whatever. That was, like, no effort. And the things that other people accomplished were like, oh, my God, that's so incredible. I'm saying this as a reminder to both you and me that let's. Let's celebrate the things that we do well. Even if they seemingly come easy to us.

JULIA: Yeah, even the little things.

ADRIANA: Exactly. They're still impressive to other people who don't, who might not necessarily have those skills come as easily. Yeah. As a reminder to our, to our viewers and listeners as well, because it's very easy to get wrapped up in that. Well, we're coming up on time, but before we go, I was wondering if there are any parting words of wisdom that you would like to share with our audience.

JULIA: No. Just thank everyone for listening and, you know, follow your podcast. I love listening to all your episodes. Feel free to follow me and connect with me on social media if you have any questions. And, you know, keep doing what you're doing. I'm sure you're doing great. Don't give up whatever hardship you have, you know, again, the journey is not easy. It's a marathon, not a sprint, but everything works out in the end So. Yeah.

ADRIANA: Absolutely. Those are great words of wisdom. Well, thank you, Julia, for Geeking Out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

JULIA: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingouthe.