KOL326 | Scottish Liberty Podcast: Discussing the Mossoff-Sammeroff IP Debate, Take 1: Under the Influence…

Mar 21, 2021

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Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 326. [Update: Transcript appended below] Back on May 24, 2020, I appeared on the Scottish Liberty Podcast, with hosts Antony Sammeroff and Tom Laird. We discussed IP and related matters, including Sammeroff’s recent debate on the topic of IP with pro-IP Randian law professor Adam Mossoff. I was a bit drunk and it shows, and went off on a rant and was not as coherent as usual. The episode was entitled "Under the Influence... of Stephan Kinsella... Against Intellectual Property". We recorded a second episode on May 30, 2020, entitled "A Sober Conversation with Stephan Kinsella...," which was released as KOL289. I just realized I never posted the initial episode, so here it is, warts and all (unfortunately for fans of my drunken rants, I have quit drinking alcohol since I realized it's a destructive poison with no benefits at all, so this won't happen again). Previous episode: KOL289 | Scottish Liberty Podcast: Discussing the Mossoff-Sammeroff IP Debate, Take 2: A Sober Conversation… See various links, embeds, notes below. Youtube of the current discussion: Previous Youtube from KOL289. Antony’s previous debate with Mossoff: In his remarks, Mossoff mentioned this paper by Stephen Haber as supporting the empirical case for patents (funny, I thought the Objectivists had principles): Stephen Haber, “Patents and the Wealth of Nations,” 23 Geo. Mason L.Rev. 811 (2016). I have read through it as much as I can stand and provide my critical commentary here: “The Overwhelming Empirical Case Against Patent and Copyright”–see in particular note 3 and accompanying text. ❧ Transcript Scottish Liberty Podcast: Discussing the Mossoff-Sammeroff IP Debate, Take 1: Under the Influence of Stephan Kinsella: Against Intellectual Property (May 21, 2020) [Transcript of "Scottish Liberty Podcast: Discussing the Mossoff-Sammeroff IP Debate, Take 1: Under the Influence..." (May 21, 2020)] 00:00:03 TOM LAIRD: Welcome to episode 155 of the Scottish Liberty podcast with me, Tom Laird and, of course, the man who can, Antony Sammeroff. 00:00:13 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: That’s me. 00:00:13 TOM LAIRD: And possibly the man who can, Stephen Kinsella, big hitter from the Mises Institute and patent lawyer extraordinaire, and there he goes. 00:00:25 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Author of Against Intellectual Property, a very influential book in the libertarian movement I have to say. 00:00:33 STEPHAN KINSELLA: The most intellectual book, and get my name right. Let’s say Stephan. Let’s say it. Okay, can you guys say with me Stephanie? Say it with me, Stephanie. 00:00:43 TOM LAIRD: Stephanie. 00:00:44 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Okay. Take off the E. Stephan. 00:00:47 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Stephan. Did you call him Stephen Kinsella? Did you call him – did you actually call him Stephen Kinsella in the intro? 00:00:55 TOM LAIRD: Who? 00:00:55 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Yeah, he did. It’s fine. I’m used to it. I’m used to it. 00:00:59 TOM LAIRD: It you want it pronounced differently, spell it differently. 00:01:03 00:01:05 STEPHAN KINSELLA: You can’t blame someone’s mother – so this is the thing. You can’t blame their mother, man. You’ve got to – there’s boundaries. 00:01:13 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Well, I know. I blame my mom for tons of shit. 00:01:17 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Like what? 00:01:18 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: I don’t know if I should say it publicly. 00:01:25 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Well, then don’t tease us. Come on. 00:01:27 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: My ex-girlfriend blamed my mom’s mom for tons of shit as well. 00:01:33 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Like what? Give me one example, just one. 00:01:36 00:01:39 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: I don’t – right at the beginning of the show? There might be new listeners tuning from Twitter. I tell you what. They’ll have to actually start one of those websites where they vote. If 100 people sign the petition, Antony will disclose embarrassing details of the way that his mom scarred him in childhood. 00:01:58 STEPHAN KINSELLA: You are so sweet. You Scottish people are so sweet. 00:02:03 TOM LAIRD: Well, look. It can’t get any more embarrassing than your pimp’s cushion that you’ve got behind you there. 00:02:09 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Do you like that? Look, I’ve got a nice set. For those of you who are on… 00:02:14 STEPHAN KINSELLA: It’s like a – is it a Bengal tiger or what the hell is that? 00:02:18 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: For those of you listening through your podcast app, I am actually setting up against a leopard skin – leopard pillow. 00:02:27 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Do you have a Jabra too? You have a Jabra too. We’re both Jabra – Jabra buddies. 00:02:32 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Jabra. That’s really funny. When I was in college, there was a group of weird jock guys that started calling me Tony Jabroni for some reason just because it rhymed. It doesn’t even mean anything. They just liked it. And now I’m a real jabroni, Jabro. I put the bro in Jabra. 00:02:53 STEPHAN KINSELLA: So when you say you went to college, what did you go to college in? 00:02:56 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Oh God. I didn’t know that I was going to be the interview guest. 00:02:59 TOM LAIRD: Exactly. We’re doing the questions here, Mr. Kinsella. 00:03:02 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Well, I mean he – you brought it up. It’s a point of interest. 00:03:07 TOM LAIRD: Okay. Antony, you’re going to have to tell us now. 00:03:09 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: These are the golden moments that people listen to Scottish Liberty podcast for. It’s not about the politics. It’s about the banter. 00:03:17 TOM LAIRD: It’s not about that cushion. But anyway, go for it. 00:03:19 00:03:21 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Well, I studied popular music, and then I went and studied music and philosophy, and then I did a post grad in counseling studies. 00:03:30 STEPHAN KINSELLA: So things you could have done without a college degree. 00:03:34 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Well, I mean – yeah, pretty much. 00:03:37 STEPHAN KINSELLA: No. I’m fucking with you but… 00:03:38 TOM LAIRD: He could have. 00:03:38 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Defend yourself. Defend yourself, my brother. 00:03:41 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: I wouldn’t have had the – I actually… 00:03:43 TOM LAIRD: The fun and the drinking. 00:03:46 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Yeah. One of my reasons for going was I thought people like me should have a degree. That’s how pretentious I was at 22. 00:03:54 TOM LAIRD: Okay. First question. 00:03:58 STEPHAN KINSELLA: What did you do your degree in? 00:04:01 TOM LAIRD: No, no, no. It’s different. 00:04:02 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait. 00:04:06 STEPHAN KINSELLA: He’s changing subject. 00:04:06 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: What did you do your degree in? 00:04:08 TOM LAIRD: So much for Antony losing his voice. 00:04:13 STEPHAN KINSELLA: His voice is – so it’s just me and you because his voice is out. 00:04:17 TOM LAIRD: Exactly. So first question and it’s an important question. 00:04:19 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: I feel bullied. 00:04:20 TOM LAIRD: Considering we were talking about Rush before this started. So the question is why didn’t America get prog rock? 00:04:28 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Well, I would challenge the assumption. I mean why would you say that it didn’t get prog rock? I mean I think that we did. 00:04:41 TOM LAIRD: Some Americans did, but it didn’t really take off in the way that it took off in Europe or elsewhere. There wasn’t really – it was more kind of niche thing in America I would – that was my take on it. It wasn’t very radio friendly. 00:04:57 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Are you a prog rock guy? 00:04:59 TOM LAIRD: Yeah, I’m a big proggie kind of guy. 00:05:03 STEPHAN KINSELLA: So Rush is like the pinnacle, right? And Yngwie Malmsteen and Triumph and that kind of stuff, right? 00:05:09 TOM LAIRD: Well, Yngwie Malmsteen doesn’t – you’re not getting Yngwie Malmsteen in prog there. I’m not having Yngwie Malmsteen. 00:05:16 STEPHAN KINSELLA: I know. I know. I know. I know. I have a 16-year-old son, and he can school me on everything, but he can’t get his driver’s license without my help. So it’s like a symbiotic thing but… 00:05:30 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: It’s a symbiotic thing except for he’s like the parasite that’s sucking out your will to live with his criticism of every little thing that… 00:05:37 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Yeah, but that’s the point of having kids, to have a parasite. 00:05:41 00:05:44 TOM LAIRD: I guess. I guess. 00:05:47 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: So… 00:05:48 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let’s go back up. What do you mean you guess? That was like a very vague, noncommittal. 00:05:58 TOM LAIRD: I’m sorry. I have to keep you to the subject here. Why doesn’t America… 00:06:03 STEPHAN KINSELLA: You don’t want to go to you. 00:06:06 TOM LAIRD: Why didn’t America get prog in the way that other countries got it? 00:06:10 STEPHAN KINSELLA: I mean why didn’t – I don’t know – Bulgaria get it? I don’t know. Why is America special? 00:06:16 TOM LAIRD: You can believe they got it. 00:06:18 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Really? 00:06:19 TOM LAIRD: Yeah. 00:06:20 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Tell me more. 00:06:21 TOM LAIRD: Okay. So favorite Rush album. 00:06:28 00:06:31 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Probably Permanent Waves. 00:06:33 TOM LAIRD: Permanent Waves. Okay, we’ll go for it. 00:06:35 ANTONY SAMMEROFF: Is it the one that goes [guitar sounds]? I love that Rush tune, love that Rush tune. 00:06:44 STEPHAN KINSELLA: Give me 60 more seconds and I’ll tell you. 00:06:49 TOM LAIRD: Gee. You’re a Rush fan, for cryin’ out loud.